# Math question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435 "2007-01-25T18:03:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RancidYakButterTeaParty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@RancidYakButterTeaParty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RancidYakButterTeaParty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/1 "2007-01-25T18:03:26Z")
Could anyone tell me the amount written on [this](http://csiano.home.comcast.net/ECheck.jpg) check: ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/2 "2007-01-25T18:09:47Z")
e[sup]i pi[/sup] = -1 1/2[sup]n[/sup] = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 … = 1 Those terms cancel out. So the remainder is the .002. The problem is that I bet this is meant to be two cents, as in I’m giving you my two cents, but it really written as two-tenths of a cent, ruining the joke. ---
**Author:** ![RancidYakButterTeaParty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@RancidYakButterTeaParty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RancidYakButterTeaParty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/3 "2007-01-25T18:53:52Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] e[sup]i pi[/sup] = -1 1/2[sup]n[/sup] = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 … = 1 Those terms cancel out. So the remainder is the .002. The problem is that I bet this is meant to be two cents, as in I’m giving you my two cents, but it really written as two-tenths of a cent, ruining the joke. [/QUOTE] Very good. Thanks for the help–and I’m sure you’re right that it was supposed to be his “two cents”. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/4 "2007-01-25T19:24:30Z")
[QUOTE=RancidYakButterTeaParty] Very good. Thanks for the help–and I’m sure you’re right that it was supposed to be his “two cents”. [/QUOTE] I’d be interested in the story behind this if you happen to know it. ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/5 "2007-01-25T19:34:18Z")
It’s not supposed to be 2 cents, it’s written correctly as “.002”. The story is that there have been several people recently who were quoted (by Verizon) a rate of .002 cents per kilobyte. Their bill ended up based on .002 dollars per kilobyte instead. A lot of confusion has resulted. In particular, a 23 minute recording of a customer talking with a Verizon employee who is confused over the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp0HyxQv97Q) ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/6 "2007-01-25T19:43:31Z")
Not just one employee, but a supervisor also! Discussion here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399511&highlight=verizon+math](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399511&highlight=verizon+math) ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/7 "2007-01-25T23:41:59Z")
This thread revives painful memories of when I was in sixth grade, forty years ago, and the sign at the bakery gave the price of their brownies as “.10¢” I asked for ten brownies, and tried to pay one cent for them. No one in the store, nor anyone in my family thought I was corrrect. :mad: :mad: :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/8 "2007-01-25T23:44:37Z")
I work in retail and it drives me up the friggen wall when they set a price gun to .99¢ or $1.99¢ ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/9 "2007-01-26T00:11:32Z")
Let’s see if I can work up some kind of defence for the Verizon call centre people: The unspoken, but nevertheless strong convention is that the presence of a decimal point in monetary amounts indicates that the unit is dollars, or the local currency unit, assuming that 1.00 is a reasonable base amount in that currency. Subunits of the base currency unit, such as cents, are only expressed in whole numbers. By that possibly unspoken yet well-established convention, “0.002” when referring to U.S money, can only mean 0.002 dollars. If someone says “0.002 cents” it is therefore not unreasonable to assume that they mean “0.002 dollars, expressed in cents”. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/10 "2007-01-26T00:37:18Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] Let’s see if I can work up some kind of defence for the Verizon call centre people: The unspoken, but nevertheless strong convention is that the presence of a decimal point in monetary amounts indicates that the unit is dollars, or the local currency unit, assuming that 1.00 is a reasonable base amount in that currency. Subunits of the base currency unit, such as cents, are only expressed in whole numbers. By that possibly unspoken yet well-established convention, “0.002” when referring to U.S money, can only mean 0.002 dollars. If someone says “0.002 cents” it is therefore not unreasonable to assume that they mean “0.002 dollars, expressed in cents”. [/QUOTE] Valiant effort, but “.002 cents” is just that. I don’t think anything that explicit can be “reasonably” interpreted differently, especially in the cell business where things are often expressed as cents per minute, etc. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/11 "2007-01-26T01:18:45Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] Let’s see if I can work up some kind of defence for the Verizon call centre people: The unspoken, but nevertheless strong convention is that the presence of a decimal point in monetary amounts indicates that the unit is dollars, or the local currency unit, assuming that 1.00 is a reasonable base amount in that currency. Subunits of the base currency unit, such as cents, are only expressed in whole numbers. By that possibly unspoken yet well-established convention, “0.002” when referring to U.S money, can only mean 0.002 dollars. If someone says “0.002 cents” it is therefore not unreasonable to assume that they mean “0.002 dollars, expressed in cents”. [/QUOTE] I could _almost_ buy this is if was the more common mistake of saying something like “0.02 cents” or “0.02¢” – you know, expressing the dollar amount but putting cents or ¢ after it. But when somebody says “0.002 cents,” I’m going to think that they mean 2/1000 of a cent, not 2/1000 of a dollar. That extra zero throws everything into chaos, and there’s no reasonable way to guess at what they mean. I mean, I agree that most reasonable people will realize that, stupidity aside, the grocer or whoever probably meant $0.59 or 59¢ when they wrote 0.59¢, but 0.002¢ is not a common way of writing anything, and I’d just have to assume they meant what they said, there. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/12 "2007-01-26T13:53:11Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] e[sup]i pi[/sup] = -1 1/2[sup]n[/sup] = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 … = 1 Those terms cancel out. So the remainder is the .002. The problem is that I bet this is meant to be two cents, as in I’m giving you my two cents, but it really written as two-tenths of a cent, ruining the joke. [/QUOTE] No, it was meant to be .002 cents. This is a reference to the fact that Verizon doesn’t know the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents, given that they quote one (cents) as the per-kB data transfer rate for an American account in Canada and they charge the other (dollars). ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/13 "2007-01-26T13:56:24Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] Let’s see if I can work up some kind of defence for the Verizon call centre people: [/QUOTE] Did you actually listen to the exchange? “Do you agree there’s a difference between one dollar and one cent?” “of course” “Do you agree there’s a difference between half a dollar and half a cent?” “sure…” “Now, do you agree there’s a difference between point-zero-zero-two dollars and point-zero-zero-two cents?” “no” This isn’t some differing convention, this is just pure stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![scottkris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@scottkris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scottkris)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/14 "2007-01-26T13:59:23Z")
[QUOTE=Cabbage] It’s not supposed to be 2 cents, it’s written correctly as “.002”. The story is that there have been several people recently who were quoted (by Verizon) a rate of .002 cents per kilobyte. Their bill ended up based on .002 dollars per kilobyte instead. A lot of confusion has resulted. In particular, a 23 minute recording of a customer talking with a Verizon employee who is confused over the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents: ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Gp0HyxQv97Q/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/Gp0HyxQv97Q?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque [/QUOTE] Oh, wait…this was from Canada. Yes, .002 cents is the same as .002 dollars. Duh… ---
**Author:** ![scottkris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@scottkris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scottkris)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/15 "2007-01-26T14:09:40Z")
[QUOTE=scottkris] Oh, wait…this was from Canada. Yes, .002 cents is the same as .002 dollars. Duh… [/QUOTE] Seriously, neither the caller nor the rep can decide on US dollars vs C$, or even kilobytes vs kilobits. Something is seriously screwed-up at verizon… ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/16 "2007-01-26T14:09:47Z")
An earlier ISP of mine was bought by Verizon - they were spectacularly thick ---
**Author:** ![scottkris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@scottkris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scottkris)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/17 "2007-01-26T14:49:50Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] An earlier ISP of mine was bought by Verizon - they were spectacularly thick [/QUOTE] Me too, though since I am in the USA not the UK, I doubt it was the same one (mine was GTE). Thank God (or not, depending on your perspective) I can “steal” WiFi where I live. Obviously, verizon cannot tell the difference between dollars and cents; let alone kilobytes and kilobits. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/18 "2007-01-26T16:31:58Z")
Oh man, this Verizon thing is awesome! From the transcript: > [@](#): > > 0:44 G: Well, let me just start out with a basic question. > M: Okay. > G: Do you recognize that there’s a difference between “point zero zero two dollars” and “point zero zero two cents”? > [pause] > M: Point zero zero two dollars? > G: Do you recognize that there is actually… > M: …and point zero zero two cents. > G: Yes, do you you recognize there’s a difference between those 2 numbers? > [pause] > M: No. > [@](#): > > M: So basically you’re paying… you’re paying two tenths of a penny [pause] per kilobyte. If you want to look at it that way. > G: Two tenths? hold on, hold on.. two tenths of a penny… > M: Mmhm. > G: …would be .2 cents. You quoted me .002 cents. Do you see what I’m saying? [pause] Two tenths of one cent… > M: Mmhm. > M: …would be point two cents. You quoted me .002 cents. > M: That’s correct. > 11:16 G: there’s a difference between .2 cents and .002 cents. They’re 100 times different. So which is the real rate? > M: .002 sir. > G: .002 what? > M: Cents per kilobyte! > pause > G: So you just said it was .2 pennies and then you also said it was .002 cents. Those are 2 completely different numbers. They’re 100-fold different. Quoting someone .002 cents per kilobyte is different than .002 dollars per kilobyte. I… I don’t know what else more I can tell ya. The math… the math on the bill is right if it’s .002 dollars per kilobyte. It was quoted .002 cents. > S: George, hold on one second for me okay? Then from the supervisor that came on later: > [@](#): > > G.002 cents per minute is what’s quoted for me… is what was quoted to me. My bill reflects .002 _dollars_ per minute > Supervisor: What do you mean .002 dollars? > [@](#): > > G: [big sigh] Okay, I think I have to do this again. Do you recognize that there’s a difference between one dollar and one cent? > S: Definitely. > G: Do you recognize there’s a difference between half a dollar and half a cent? > S: Definitely > G: Then, do you therefore recognize there’s a difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents > S: No. > [@](#): > > G: No? > S: I mean there’s… there’s no .002 dollars. > G: Of course there it’s.. it’s two.. > S: There’s .002 cents is what you’re quoted, and that’s what I do show that you… you paid, or that ya know, you’re paying for the kilobyte usage. > G: Okay. [sigh] I don’t.. I don’t know a better way to express this. .002 dollars is the same as .2 cents. > S: Okay. Well how would you… What would .002 dollars look to you? > G: It’s point… > S: Obviously, a dollar is “one, decimal, zero, zero” right? So what would a “point zero zero two dollars” look like? > [@](#): > > G: This is where… This is where you’re wrong, I, I don’t know how to make this any clearer. Let’s try this. Write down 1 cent. How do you write down 1 cent? > S: Point zero one. > G: How do you write down half a cent? > S: Uhhh, that would be point zero zero five of a cent. > G: Okay. > S: [laughing] I don’t know, I’m not a mathematician. All I’m telling you is I can tell you that with the calculator… Oh man this is amazing. Of course, it was silly for the guy to think .002 cents per kilobyte could be correct in the first place, but still… -FrL ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/19 "2007-01-26T16:36:02Z")
And yet high school students wonder why they are asked to spend four years in math classes? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435/20 "2007-01-26T17:54:46Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] And yet high school students wonder why they are asked to spend four years in math classes? [/QUOTE] But apparently the idea “I’ll never use it in real life” holds true. :smack: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/math-question/389435.md?page=2)