# Matrix plot discussion - Reloaded (very spoiled) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248 "2003-05-24T17:14:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/21 "2003-05-25T18:02:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shalmanese \* > Yes, its clear that Agent Smith knows about the first matrix but its also clear he thinks that this is the second one and not the seventh. I was referring to the previous 5 non-perfect ones. I don’t think that’s clear. Sure he doesn’t mention the other five, but he doesn’t need to in order to make the point that he’s making at the time. What does he say that makes it sound like he thinks that this is the second one? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sotally tober \* > **3.** I read a little of the other thread before giving it up entirely - too long- but what amused me was that people took the Architect’s speech as a given. He’s a program (his speech, contrary to being verbose, fits in just nicely with what a computer program is likely to say) whose veracity has not been verified. > > Who is to say the Architect isn’t lying? And that Neo isn’t the 6th. I thought of this too. Maybe you can answer a question that I couldn’t, then. If he was lying, to what end? What possible purpose would the AI have to get Neo to come to their glowy room and pick a door unless what the Architect said was true? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 23skidoo \* > Similarly, the Oracle says stuff like “We’ll talk about your dreams in a minute”, not “I know you’ve been having dreams about Trinity being shot as she falls to her death”. > > Hell, the only one that really predicted the future was Neo, because the stuff that he dreamed actually came true. Well, the Oracle did tell Morpheus that he would find the One, and she did tell Trinity that she would fall in love with the One. That’s pretty talented of her, considering they didn’t even know about Neo at that point. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/22 "2003-05-25T18:43:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Silentgoldfish \* > \*\*I will eat my virtual hat if it turns out that Zion is another Matrix. It was what everyone said that the twist was going to be at the end of Reloaded and since that didn’t happen it’s what they’re saying about Revolutions. > > It was a stupid plot twist when Existenz did it, it was just as stupid when The Thirteenth Floor did it and even if for no other reason than that it’s been done in two other films in the past 5 years it’s not gonna be a twist in the Matrix trilogy. \*\* It’s not a “twist”, **Silentgoldfish** , and it’s certainly not stupid. You’ve missed the point – which is the point. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/23 "2003-05-26T07:03:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 23skidoo \* > \*\*Do the Architect or the Oracle ever really predict anything before it happens? \*\* Yes. “Don’t worry about the lamp.” “What lamp?” [Neo knocks over lamp.] ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/24 "2003-05-26T07:24:35Z")
**SenorBeef** , that’s qualified a bit, because she then raises the possibility that he wouldn’t have knocked the vase over at all if she hadn’t said anything. So was she prophesying _ex nihilo_, or was she actually applying subtle manipulation? What charming bit of idiom did she use to introduce that idea? “What’ll really boil your noodle is…” Something like that. I love an old lady who f.cks with my mind. Hey, talking of the Oracle, I hunted around for a pic of [Mary Alice](http://us.imdb.com/Name?Alice,+Mary), who replaced Gloria Foster in the role. With a resume like that, I’m sure she hasn’t signed on just to do some VO work in a video game. So I’m looking at [this picture](http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/movie/sunshine_state/mary_alice_01.jpg) trying to picture her as the Oracle. (I haven’t seen _Enter the Matrix_ yet- my computer is too wimpy.) I really loved Ms. Foster in the role, but I think it’ll be okay. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/25 "2003-05-26T07:36:33Z")
Just noticed that Mary Alice played Augustus’ mum in _Oz_… I wonder if Link will have any scenes with her in _Revolutions_. “Shouldn’t you have _known_ not to get on that bus, ma?” Heh. ---
**Author:** ![23skidoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f04885/32.png) [@23skidoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/23skidoo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/26 "2003-05-26T13:44:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > \*\*Well, the Oracle did tell Morpheus that he would find the One, and she did tell Trinity that she would fall in love with the One. That’s pretty talented of her, considering they didn’t even know about Neo at that point. \*\* Yeah, but we never see those scenes. I can imagine them playing out kind of like how Neo’s visit went: “You already know what I’m going to tell you, don’t you?” “That I’m not the One.” “Sorry, kid.” SHE doesn’t say he’s not the One, HE does. Morpheus probably wanted to find the One more than anything, so she agreed with him when he said that was his destiny. Trinity probably wanted to be in love and find the One, too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Tof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tof)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/27 "2003-05-26T15:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, but we never see those scenes. I can imagine them playing out kind of like how Neo’s visit went: > > “You already know what I’m going to tell you, don’t you?” > > “That I’m not the One.” > > “Sorry, kid.” > > SHE doesn’t say he’s not the One, HE does. Morpheus probably wanted to find the One more than anything, so she agreed with him when he said that was his destiny. Trinity probably wanted to be in love and find the One, too. I highly doubt it. The Oracle told Neo he wasn’t the one as a means of allowing him to discover that he was. She _knew_ that he was. But also knew he was skeptical about the whole business, so if she just told him, he would still be doubtful of it. If he was allowed to discover it on his own, only then would he be able to free himself and become the one. Remember, immediately after this she tells him that Morpheus is going to give his life for him… and it will be up to Neo to decide whether Morpheus lives _or_ Neo lives. It is this quest that she sends him on that allows him to discover he is the one. So while she is telling him he’s not. She’s giving him the quest that will lead to discovery. (And incidentally, I’d say that knowing this quest lied ahead for Neo is another example of The Oracle predicting the future.) > [@](#): > > Neo was given 2 choices: to save trinity or let her die and save the world (reboot the matrix). Neo is given two choices. Trinity really only factors in to the equation because in one choice he has the hope of saving her. His two choices were– A\> Do not reboot the Matrix. Zion will be destroyed, and the Matrix will not be rebooted causing the destruction of humanity. B\> Reboot the Matrix. Choose 16 women and 7 men to live on with you and rebuild Zion. Trinity doesn’t factor into the choices, but in why he makes his decision. Because of his love for Trinity, he chose A on the hope that he could save her and somehow save Zion. Nobody must like my-- “The Council are the survivors from the previous Matrix” idea. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/28 "2003-05-26T16:26:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Screeme \* > Nobody must like my-- “The Council are the survivors from the previous Matrix” idea. Interesting. No one survived the previous Zion except The One, remember? Zion is destroyed and the One has to pick 16 women and 7 men _from the Matrix_ to refound Zion. So the Council could be the remnants of the original crew picked by the One to start Zion, but they still wouldn’t know that Zion had had several prior iterations. The only person who would know that is The One. Councillor Hamann could be the previous One. It would make his conversation with Neo about the interdependence of man and machine loaded with hidden meaning. He would know that Zion was going to be destroyed again, as he would assume that Neo would patch the Matrix and Zio would be razed. Perhaps he was trying to make Neo feel better about his choice… but then Neo made a different choice. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/29 "2003-05-26T16:44:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Councillor Hamann could be the previous One. Wouldn’t that mean he was over 100 years old? Or perhaps the previous One would be able to control his aging since he was awakened to the existence of the Zion Matrix. What I wonder is why none of the 5 previous Ones have ever told the 16 women and 7 men they choose to found the new Zion that it’s just another Matrix. Or maybe he did and that knowledge is only passed down through counsel members. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/30 "2003-05-26T16:56:33Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by shy guy \* \*\*Wouldn’t that mean he was over 100 years old? Or perhaps the previous One would be able to control his aging since he was awakened to the existence of the Zion Matrix.[/qupte] Help me out here-- where in the movie was it stated that each iteration of Zion lasts 100 years? I couldn’t find it in the transcript of the Architect’s speech. I only saw the movie once so I can’t recall this detail. > [@](#): > > What I wonder is why none of the 5 previous Ones have ever told the 16 women and 7 men they choose to found the new Zion that it’s just another Matrix. Or maybe he did and that knowledge is only passed down through counsel members. Maybe they didn’t want to ruin Zion. I think the people in Zion really need to believe in Zion in order to maintain the integrity of both the Matrix and Zion, not to mention their own sanity and peace of mind. If they began to doubt Zion, that would probably cause a major system crash. Just guess. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Tof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tof)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/31 "2003-05-26T17:33:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rubystreak \* > \*\*No one survived the previous Zion except The One, remember? Zion is destroyed and the One has to pick 16 women and 7 men _from the Matrix_ to refound Zion. So the Council could be the remnants of the original crew picked by the One to start Zion, but they still wouldn’t know that Zion had had several prior iterations. The only person who would know that is The One. > \*\* When I said the survivors, I meant the people that the One chose from the Matrix to survive in Zion. I apologize for not being clear. As far as not knowing-- I would think that if you were ripped out of the Matrix, and suddenly put in charge of rebuilding a desolate world in the middle of the earth with 23 other people, there would be some explaining to do by the guy who did it. So I’m pretty sure, if my theory is correct, the Council is well aware of the whole process-- because The One would have told them why they were there. There is nowhere in the movie that indicates time between ones incidentally. This is something that some people have extrapolated somehow from the script. But the movie doesn’t indicate this at all. The architect says only that he prefers to count time as time between Ones. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > What I wonder is why none of the 5 previous Ones have ever told the 16 women and 7 men they choose to found the new Zion that it’s just another Matrix. Or maybe he did and that knowledge is only passed down through counsel members. > > Maybe they didn’t want to ruin Zion. I think the people in Zion really need to believe in Zion in order to maintain the integrity of both the Matrix and Zion, not to mention their own sanity and peace of mind. If they began to doubt Zion, that would probably cause a major system crash. Just guess. Or perhaps since the previous ones made a different choice than Neo; they are not aware that Zion is a matrix within a matrix. The architect certainly doesn’t say this. He only really says they need Zion for the people that reject the Matrix. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/32 "2003-05-26T18:15:29Z")
> [@](#): > > There is nowhere in the movie that indicates time between ones incidentally. This is something that some people have extrapolated somehow from the script. Sure it is. In the pep-rally scene, Morpheus says that he’s not afraid, because he remembers that “after a century of war, we are still here.” True, this only gives us the age of the current instance of Zion, and at no point does anyone explicitly say that there’s a set-in-stone one-hundred-year cycle, but it seems like a reasonable teleological extrapolation to say that the same system, reset to the same initial conditions, will take approximately the same amount of time to reach its critical state, given a .1% “error rate” of malcontents that need to be shunted into Zion. (You know, these days, there just aren’t enough opportunities to work the word ‘teleological’ into the conversation. Huzzah for the Bros. W.) Disregarding speculation about how long the previous Zions endured, we know that the current Zion has an approximately a hundred year history-- add the age that folks would have already reached before they were freed from the Matrix. Councillor Harmann may not exactly be in the bloom of youth, but I don’t buy him as 115 years old or more. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/33 "2003-05-26T18:26:33Z")
While I doubt that it’s the case that the Council are the survivors, I think it wouldn’t be unreasonable for Hammann to be 115. They clearly have some sort of advanced medical technology, if they can rebuild Neo’s muscles. Increased life expectancy should be all part of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/34 "2003-05-26T18:44:32Z")
A good point, although physical rehabilitation is strictly _necessary_ to the plot, but a population of Methuselahs isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![KarmaComa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e36b37/32.png) [@KarmaComa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarmaComa)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/35 "2003-05-26T19:28:59Z")
I haven’t read, nor will I read, all the matrix stuff in this and other threads, but I just wanted to share what popped into my head when The Architect was talking about the Oracle. At the risk of sounding like a total geek, random seed? What do you guys think? ---
**Author:** ![coax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@coax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coax)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/36 "2003-05-26T19:41:57Z")
Apropos, here’s my weird little theory. Morpheus is a program. Without all his prophecy crap Neo would never have been the One, Neo would never have been freed either. 2 questions pop up then. Why did they pick Neo? Why does Neo know the name of the Matrix before anyone has told him?(remember in #1 where he asks Trinity, “what is the Matrix”, he was never been told this at all if you watch the movie again.) I think Morpheus is a program set out to get Neo on his journey to the Source. Also, the screens in the Architects room is not choices he can make then and there, and it’s not his emotions and thoughts and reactions laid out or calculated by the agents. They represent timelines, different timelines that could have happened had Neo made different choices earlier in life. Tangents if you will. IMO of course. ALso I’d like to add, i hope the Wachowskis read these threads and think, “ok let’s not do any of this”, cause I hate to go to the theater in november and see that I’d already read the whole movie. I like surprises. ---
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/37 "2003-05-26T20:01:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by coax \* > \*\*Why does Neo know the name of the Matrix before anyone has told him?(remember in #1 where he asks Trinity, “what is the Matrix”, he was never been told this at all if you watch the movie again.) > \*\* If I recall correctly, when Trinity hacks Neo’s computer, she types “The Matrix Has You” on the screen. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by coax \* > \*\*ALso I’d like to add, i hope the Wachowskis read these threads and think, “ok let’s not do any of this”, cause I hate to go to the theater in november and see that I’d already read the whole movie. > I like surprises. > \*\* The second movie is already done (Or damn close), thus reading these threads wouldn’t help at all. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/38 "2003-05-26T20:45:05Z")
BTW Keanu Reeves did an interview with an online mag (sorry, I don’t have a link right now) in which he said that Zion was real and Neo is not a program. ---
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/39 "2003-05-26T20:47:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RikWriter \* > \*\*BTW Keanu Reeves did an interview with an online mag (sorry, I don’t have a link right now) in which he said that Zion was real and Neo is not a program. \*\* :mad: I’m not doubting you, but do you have a cite? I wouldn’t mind reading that. Btw, if I read an earlier post correctly, they’re replacing the Oracle with a new actress? I was really hoping they’d be able to conclude the movie without her since changing actors is something that really bugs me in films. ---
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/40 "2003-05-26T20:49:07Z")
Whoa, how the hell did that angry smile get there in my previous post? That’s an impressive typo. Anyways, that smiley was not intended. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248.md?page=3)