# Matrix plot discussion - Reloaded (very spoiled) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248 "2003-05-24T17:14:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/41 "2003-05-26T21:02:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skott \* > \*\*1. Why are there agents who’s sole purpose seems to be to seek and elimante those who are freed from the Matrix if it is the machine’s requirement that these people do free themselves? > \*\* Because the writers are making the story up as they go along. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 2. Why do the agents seek the Zion mainframe codes when the machines will destroy Zion whenever it reaches a certain population anyway? > \*\* Because the writers are making the story up as they go along. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 3. Why is there so much that has to be done in order for Neo to reach the Architect when, again, it is the machine’s desire that he actually do so? > \*\* Because the writers are making the story up as they go along. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 4. Why didn’t Neo simply fly away from the attack of the Smiths? There’s a clear indication that it requires a little bit of time and mental effort in order to be able to lift off, which the Smiths certainly didn’t give him. \*\* Because they wanted to pad the movie with another nifty special effects sequence. ---
**Author:** ![Draknek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@Draknek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draknek)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/42 "2003-05-26T22:44:00Z")
I just have to mention my personal opinion on two points here. **1.** The Counsellor is the previous One. I don’t buy this. 115 is very old, and even taking into account advanced medical technology, I can’t see him being that old. He seems perfectly fit and able. **2.** Zion is a matrix in a matrix. I don’t like this theory either, but I can see it has more evidence for it than the other point. However, I had a thought about it. If Zion _is_ a matrix within a matrix, then why do they need the Sentinals? All they need to do is unplug everyone in the Zion matrix at the same time, and they’re all dead, ready for repopulation by the One. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/43 "2003-05-26T22:57:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Why are there agents who’s sole purpose seems to be to seek and elimante those who are freed from the Matrix if it is the machine’s requirement that these people do free themselves? Because although the bit with the One is necessary to keep the Matrix running, it isn’t something the machines want to do all the time, in case someone like Neo who doesn’t mind killing everyone ends up being the One. The fact that you are resigned to rebooting your computer does not mean that you are thrilled to reboot all the time. > [@](#): > > 1. Why do the agents seek the Zion mainframe codes when the machines will destroy Zion whenever it reaches a certain population anyway? So a bunch of Sentinels aren’t blown up in the process. Also, I don’t think that the Agents are taking orders from the Architect. I think that he just made some programs, gave them root, and told them to protect the Matrix, knowing that they can keep Morpheus and his ilk from destroying everything but that they will be powerless against the One. It would therefore follow that they would do their part do destroy Zion, as it threatens the Matrix. > [@](#): > > Why is there so much that has to be done in order for Neo to reach the Architect when, again, it is the machine’s desire that he actually do so? To keep the riff-raff out. Also note that Neo has been dreaming of what he is supposed to do, and that if we accept the rules that we are shown, there really isn’t anything that can stop the One inside the Matrix. So, an impossible task works very well at keeping everyone but the One out. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/44 "2003-05-26T23:40:28Z")
As for the age thing, what if the 23 council lie to those who are removed from the Matrix about the age of Zion? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/45 "2003-05-26T23:45:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by skaterboarder87 \* > \*\*:mad: > > I’m not doubting you, but do you have a cite? I wouldn’t mind reading that. > > Btw, if I read an earlier post correctly, they’re replacing the Oracle with a new actress? I was really hoping they’d be able to conclude the movie without her since changing actors is something that really bugs me in films. \*\* [http://fantasticadaily.com/articles.php?articleId=1052&page=2](http://fantasticadaily.com/articles.php?articleId=1052&page=2) ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/46 "2003-05-27T00:05:46Z")
Well, my hat’s safe. **TVAA** : nyah! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sealemon88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Sealemon88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sealemon88)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/47 "2003-05-27T03:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t buy that. How’d you explain that the Agents couldn’t force the source codes from Morpheus’ head in the first movie? Obviously if they can read minds then they definately wouldn’t have to chase Neo, Trinity or Morpheus. Think freeway chase Why did The Oracle need a body guard? Couldn’t she fight as well as an Agent? Because the Oracle program was written with the ability to scan probablity (as well as memory data) and predict the most likely probabilty, while the Agents were written with the power to kick ass. Out of all the evidence I’ve seen for the Matrix-In-A-Matrix hypothises, the most compelling argument to me was Neo stopping the Sentinels. Also, there’s the last minute rescue of Neo in the first movie when Tank just _happens_ to blast Cypher(?) at the last minute, as well as the climax of the first movie (Sleeping Beauty CPR?). I truly hope that they don’t go with the nested Matrix move, though; it’s been done to death. Perhaps Neo got real life psichic powers when he blast Smith in the first movie? Ugh, that’s almost as annoying as the It’s All A Dream possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/48 "2003-05-27T04:08:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AndrewL \* > **Because the writers are making the story up as they go along.** I respectfully disagree. The W Brothers have stated time and again (even during commentary for the _first_ film) that The Matrix was conceived as a trilogy. If I recall correctly, they made Bound specifically to prove to the studio that they could handle something on the magnitude of a huge blockbuster trilogy, and then had to prove themselves again by making sure The Matrix itself was a smash hit. If nothing else, they’ve proven that they care a lot about this story, and have invested a LOT of time in developing it. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Draknek_ > **1. The Counsellor is the previous One. I don’t buy this. 115 is very old, and even taking into account advanced medical technology, I can’t see him being that old. He seems perfectly fit and able.** In addition, Morpheus says in the first film that the Oracle prophesized the return of the One after the first (or rather, fifth) One died. Even if Morpheus really has some dark ulterior motives, I doubt he’d lie about something as simple as this, because it’d be pretty easy for Neo to falsify upon actually arriving in Zion. ---
**Author:** ![BraheSilver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@BraheSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BraheSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/49 "2003-05-27T04:15:41Z")
This came to me as I finished reading the Red Dwarf books again: What if there isn’t a “Matrix in the Matrix” thing going on? Perhaps it’s simpler than that. When the .1% of the population resists the Matrix, instead of actually dumping the person from the system it could just tell the person’s mind “okay, you’re out. This is the real world.” And the person, thinking that he’d escaped, wouldn’t see any reason to question this new reality presented to him. Besides, they’d be busy trying to survive. Nobody would stand up to the Sentinels, Zion, and the baby farms and deny it, because it’s so bleak. Neo still having powers? That’s because he’s still in the Matrix. Nobody else is doing super-moves in Zion because they don’t _believe_ they can. Smith overwriting Bane? Also because it’s still within the system. Oracle reading Neo’s dreams? Neo’s still in the system while he dreams them, even if there’s no “physical” interaction between the two worlds. Neo dreaming the future? That one I can’t explain. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/50 "2003-05-27T04:33:07Z")
I’m gonna stand beside **Tarrsk** , and point and **AndrewL**. “Making it up as they go along?” Except that they’re working very faithfully to transliterate an established body of work into sci-fi idiom. It’s a creative work, but it’s built to a pattern. In some sense, the Cohen Bros., Arthur C. Clarke, James Joyce were making _O Brother Where Art Thou, 2001,_ and _Ulysses_ up as they went along, too-- but if you know the source material that they all share, you know the basic outline of what’s going to happen. Why does Baby Face Nelson feel the need to shoot at some cows? Because the writers were making it up as they were going along, and just wanted to show some hamburger flying? Or is there some other significance to it? Same deal here. ---
**Author:** ![zebraplooker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/d6d6ee/32.png) [@zebraplooker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zebraplooker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/51 "2003-05-27T04:46:10Z")
I wonder about the repeated destruction and repopulation of Zion. The Council must be aware of the previous presence of the city. After all, when the previous Ones choose the 16 women and 7 men and rebuild the city, they must rebuild it on the remains of the previous Zions. It seems impossible that all artifacts and traces would be destroyed. The Council is a Council of Elders. This is popular in both mythology and reality. I wouldn’t read too much into their ages. There was only one character in the Matrix movies who might be 115 years old: In the first Matrix, when Morpheous takes Neo to see the Oracle, there is is an old blind man sitting in the lobby. Morpheous nods to the blind man, and he nods back, which is funny. Maybe he was the previous One. I still don’t know the significance of 101: Neo’s apartment number in the first film, the floor number of the Merovingian’s restaurant and the number of the freeway. Has anyone cracked that? I read the huge thread as well as this one. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/52 "2003-05-27T10:35:25Z")
101 is 5 in binary. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/53 "2003-05-27T14:56:20Z")
> [@](#): > > I still don’t know the significance of 101: Room 101 was in _1984_ which is the probable reference refered to in the film. A room which housed a persons greatest fears. ---
**Author:** ![mongrel\_8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@mongrel\_8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mongrel_8)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/54 "2003-05-27T15:11:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*101 is 5 in binary. \*\* I posted this in the other thread but my thought was that it was subtle hint to how many “Ones” there were before Neo, or how many previous Matrixes there were. ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/55 "2003-05-28T07:16:57Z")
It’s possible that “5” could actually refer to the “sixth version of the Matrix,” if the Architect was following programming convention and starting with “0” instead of “1.” He could also have designated the first Matrix after the “perfect failure” as “version 1,” which would make this one “version 5.” ---
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/56 "2003-05-29T20:51:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sealemon88 \* > **Because the Oracle program was written with the ability to scan probablity (as well as memory data) and predict the most likely probabilty, while the Agents were written with the power to kick ass.** I agree with that. Think on this: Machines are predictable. It’s relatively easy to predict what they’re going to do, since they act on a system of rules, just as Morpheus said. Humans do not and thus a powerful program was written to “investigate certain aspects of the human psyche”; in other words, give a better chance of predicting human actions. It’s pretty easy to predict some things, such as Morpheus finding the One. One can conjecture that the Oracle was waiting for the right person who, once told that they would find the One, would not stop until they did. Self-fulfilling in a way. Trinity was analyzed and found that she was attracted to the same qualities that would be found in the One, and the Oracle was able to make a preciction off of that. However, I do not think that she thought that Neo was the One. Morpheus did say that she told him exactly what he needed to hear, but he was acting on his own mistaken beliefs. In Reloaded, the Oracle said “You’re beginning to making a believer out of me.” Neo didn’t become the one until his “next life”. ---
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/57 "2003-05-29T22:36:11Z")
Thanks for the answers. I guess I can accept most of them. Have to have a series of obsticles for the One to overcome in order to prove that he is the One. When I saw it for a second time the other day, other questions and observations came to mind. - It almost sounds like this is the eighth iteration of the Matrix. First was perfect and rejected. Second wasn’t perfect, but was rejected as well due to lack of choice. That’s when the “intuitive program” was brought in. Since then there have been six other iterations. - Who is after the Oracle and why are they after her? Best I can figure is it’s programs like the French guy who want more power. - Why are the agents trying to kill the Keymaker? They said that the others aren’t worthwhile, that the Keymaker is the one that they are after. One of them says he’s no longer necessary, that he’s obsolete. Yet, he seems to be the _only_ way for the One to access the machine mainframe. Without him, there’s no way to access the door. - Smith makes reference to the other Ones who came before Neo, implying that he’s been around a bit. - I’m doubt the council is either previous ones (too many of them) or the founders of Zion (not enough of them). However, I did get the feeling that the council knew what Neo was about to go through. - The best thing that I see going for the Matrix-in-a-Matrix (MIAM?) is that fact that Neo dreamed of something that actually happened in the future. However, even if he was in the Matrix when he dreamed it, how could he have? I was willing to accept some ability to see the future in the first film (i.e. the Oracle before I knew she was a program), so maybe I can accept some in the rest of the series… > [@](#): > > **Reeves says:** I don’t think it is so boxes within boxes. I think that Zion is Zion. Good evidence, but kind of implies that even he doesn’t know for sure, and he’s finished the 3rd film. I had more to say, but I pulled a Coleridge. ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/58 "2003-05-29T23:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skott \* > \*\*However, I do not think that she thought that Neo was the One. Morpheus did say that she told him exactly what he needed to hear, but he was acting on his own mistaken beliefs. In Reloaded, the Oracle said “You’re beginning to making a believer out of me.” Neo didn’t become the one until his “next life”. \*\* I disagree slightly. I’m in the ‘The Oracle planted the seeds of Revolution’ camp in regards to her ultimate purposes. Yes, she’s is acting as a tool for The Architect in bringing about the One’s return to The Source, but she also is fostering the love that initiates a change to how Neo reacts. I think that The Oracle knew that Neo was The One. The way the scene between them flows in the first film is a deft bit of cinema. She never directly indicates that she doesn’t think he’s The One, instead she lets him talk himself out of the dilemna and then redirects his attention to Morpheus. I think she’s hinting at a higher purpose than what was planned for The One (return to Source) when she says that he’s making a believer out of her. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/59 "2003-05-30T00:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skott \* > However, I do not think that she thought that Neo was the One. Morpheus did say that she told him exactly what he needed to hear, but he was acting on his own mistaken beliefs. If the Oracle knew that Trinity was going to fall for the One, but she thought Neo wasn’t it, why did she say to him, “I can see why she likes you.”? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248/60 "2003-05-30T02:01:50Z")
She never says that he _isn’t_ the One, she says “I’m sorry honey, you have the gift, but you seem to be waiting for something… maybe another life…” Or maybe a cookie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-plot-discussion-reloaded-very-spoiled/177248.md?page=4)