# Matrix Reloaded plot discussion (Spoilers Galore, NO spoiler boxes!!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374 "2003-05-15T04:47:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/281 "2003-05-20T20:39:59Z")
I’m still wondering about the Merovingian’s role in this whole thing. I’ve done some research about Merovee and his line, which amounts to a rather sinister catalogue of demonic weirdness and conspiracy theory. This definitely indicates that there’s more to him than meets the eye. Maybe he is a former One, maybe not, but… …why was he withholding the Keymaker from Neo? If he is just a program (and his discussion of language acquisition and subsequent decision to “be French” made it sound like he was AI), then wouldn’t his existence end if the Matrix crashed? Wouldn’t he WANT Neo to reload the Matrix to ensure his continuation? Unless somehow he can survive a full Matrix system failure? If so, how? This also makes me wonder what the hell Smith was doing outside the Architect’s room. He too would cease to exist if Neo didn’t reload the Matrix, so why try to stop him? Unless now that he’s in Zion he doesn’t care anymore about the Matrix? Anyone have any insight into the above questions? ---
**Author:** ![Methos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Methos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Methos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/282 "2003-05-20T20:51:02Z")
Thanks for the help Max Harvey!! much appreciated 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomyoung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@tomyoung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomyoung)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/283 "2003-05-20T20:56:59Z")
**Rubystreak** , I agree that background info on Merovingian is all over the map and inconclusive. He just seems like such a mirror image of Neo that it would be satisfying to see them linked as Ones. As for Smith, I think he absorbed enough of Neo’s anomalous code that he may attempt to merge with the source to renew the Matrix. Whether that would be successful or disastrous, who knows. But I think the multiplying Smith virus must be the escalating system collapse that will eventually crash the Matrix. I don’t have any clue how he got into that hall outside of the Architect’s room. Maybe Merovingian sent him. Did you see the army of Smiths in the Revolutions trailer? ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/284 "2003-05-20T21:02:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rubystreak \* > \*\*If he is just a program (and his discussion of language acquisition and subsequent decision to “be French” made it sound like he was AI), then wouldn’t his existence end if the Matrix crashed? Wouldn’t he WANT Neo to reload the Matrix to ensure his continuation? Unless somehow he can survive a full Matrix system failure? If so, how? > > This also makes me wonder what the hell Smith was doing outside the Architect’s room. He too would cease to exist if Neo didn’t reload the Matrix, so why try to stop him? Unless now that he’s in Zion he doesn’t care anymore about the Matrix? > > Anyone have any insight into the above questions? \*\* As I mentioned in a previous post, the matrix is but one simulation running within the mainframe. If the Matrix fails, the programs running within it can simply return to the mainframe and be reassigned elsewhere. Remember – in the first movie Agent Smith couldn’t wait to get OUT of the Matrix. Barry ---
**Author:** ![tomyoung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@tomyoung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomyoung)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/285 "2003-05-20T21:11:44Z")
Also, every One merges with the source to have his code incorporated into the Matrix. Presumably his body would die, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t linger around inside the Matrix, getting rich, learning French, designing special cakes. He and Persephone look like fallen versions of Neo and Trinity to me. **Godzilla** , I never have heard any evidence for the existence of separate simulations on the machine mainframe. I just assumed they would assign Smith some other non-matrix function in the real world, like having him do work as a Sentinel or in the baby farms or something. Actually, it’s weird that Smith would think that after completing his purpose, there would be any fate for him other than deletion. Maybe he wanted deletion. ---
**Author:** ![mongrel\_8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@mongrel\_8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mongrel_8)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/286 "2003-05-20T21:17:28Z")
I got to thinking about the appearance of 101 in the movie (at the restaurant just above the elevator and the highway was number 101). 101 in binary is 5 in decimal numbers. Maybe this was a subtle hint as to the number of Ones that came before Neo or to the number of previous Matrices. I wouldn’t be suprised if there was a lot of little hints like this in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Caustic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@Capt.Caustic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Caustic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/287 "2003-05-20T21:42:51Z")
It could be that the “process” relates to the “dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program.” He’s changed because he’s walking around with the code for the next iteration of the Matrix. ---
**Author:** ![Pablito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@Pablito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pablito)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/288 "2003-05-20T21:59:00Z")
This thread is all over the place, just like the movie. And so, too, will be my post: I wish I had a piece of that pie to share with the woman of my choice. And that shot of the digitized matrix between her thighs was veritable pornography and had me aching for more. Persephone was super-hot, too. Not much has been said here about her name. The mythological Persephone was not merely wife of Hades, god of the underworld, but she was taken there against her will and, upon gaining her release, was doomed to return to the underworld annually (hence, winter). In the context of the movie, then, her husband Merovingen represents Hades and is the keeper of the dark forces, those beings that fight to get out and annihilate the world of light. But is the Matrix that world, or is Zion? Or is it a higher level, one in which the architect exists perhaps? Persephone, in turn, wants a kiss from Neo because he brings life, like Orpheus, into the world of the damned, and she wants a taste of it. The role of the Architect was pretty interesting to me, too. He seems to be more than just some higher level program. Maybe he’s more like some version of the BIOS that controls the operations and steps that the entire computer (Matrix cum Zion) takes whenever it is re-booted (re-loaded). Or he’s a programmer in a real world who has constructed his own micro-cosm of the Matrix/Zion, and he’s available to directly ‘command’ or re-program members of his AI when they start to have problems. Neo’s coming to him then isn’t a choice, it’s just the conclusion of a series of steps written into a program, installed so that the architect can tweak his system and de-bug it. In the first movie, Agent Smith gives a long speech in which he deduces that humans are not mammals but are ‘viruses’ because of the way they behave, multiplying and consuming all the available resources then moving on to infect/destroy something else. Great irony abounds, then, because in this movie Smith himself IS a virus, a rogue program gone native, who proceeds very quickly to multiply himself and to destroy everything around him, without any clear purpose or plan or reason for his actions. He trains his sights on destroying/infecting Neo because Neo is a higher level program and infecting him will cause the most damage. In infecting Bane, he basically is a virus that is working as a trojan horse, appearing as a trusted member of the Zion group, waiting for the right time to leap out from his cover and stab at the heart of the system. I think I need to see it again. At this point, I have to say that I liked the first one lots better. It’s pretty hard to beat the scene in which Neo first wakes up in the pod, and also the bug they implant in his navel was pretty amazing. I didn’t seen anything in this movie that quite matched the first philosophically, either. But maybe it will grow on me. One additional challenge in evaluating ‘reloaded’ is that, basically, we’ve just seen the first half of the sequel, so there may be lots of threads and questions resolved and kind of pulled together for us in revolutions. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/289 "2003-05-20T22:02:29Z")
Hrm. Just something that came to me… I wonder if Neo will become the next architect? His last line to the architect is… “If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.” And the Architect says “We Won’t.” Also, the first line Neo says to him is, “Who are you”, and the Architect tells him, “… while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.” - Who are you is Neo’s first question. If who the architect is is irrelevant… Hrm… And with a name like Neo (meaning ‘new’…) ---
**Author:** ![voltaire321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e495f1/32.png) [@voltaire321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire321)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/290 "2003-05-20T22:07:10Z")
I tend to agree that Zion is in fact part of the Matrix. \ Neo is a program. He is the one, the savior, the son of god, a Jesus figure. As in Christianity, he is going to have to die for humanity’s sins. To free the humans the Matrix will have to be destroyed, and Neo will have to go with it. Oh and the real world won’t be dark and nasty. \ ---
**Author:** ![Peg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Peg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peg)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/291 "2003-05-20T22:13:17Z")
**voltaire321** , I don’t think your crazy speculation is that crazy. I mean, it’s not more crazy than some of the things that have appeared on this thread. We’ve had plenty of references to Neo as a Christ-like figure and I hypothesized that Neo may be some sort of patch to fix what is wrong in within the Matrix or network or whatever. If the Architect is being truthful in saying that Neo is only human, maybe the idea is that it takes a human to control technology & set it back on its right course. Maybe it’s wishful thinking, but I think Trinity’s role is much larger & important than we see (which, up until now, is glorified love interest). With a name like that… ---
**Author:** ![tomyoung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@tomyoung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomyoung)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/292 "2003-05-20T22:26:51Z")
**ArrMatey, Peg and Voltaire:** if it turns out that Trinity is the intuitive Mother of the Matrix, then Neo could easily turn out to be the next architect and Father. It makes their sex scene that much more meaningful, doesn’t it? Together they give birth to the new matrix. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/293 "2003-05-20T22:35:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by voltaire321 \* > \*\*I tend to agree that Zion is in fact part of the Matrix. > > \ > > Neo is a program. He is the one, the savior, the son of god, a Jesus figure. As in Christianity, he is going to have to die for humanity’s sins. To free the humans the Matrix will have to be destroyed, and Neo will have to go with it. Oh and the real world won’t be dark and nasty. > > \ \*\* Problem with that is, Neo already died once and rose from the dead. End of necessary Christlike death/ressurrection, moving on to next metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![Peg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Peg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peg)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/294 "2003-05-20T23:09:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomyoung \* > \*\ ***ArrMatey, Peg and Voltaire:** if it turns out that Trinity is the intuitive Mother of the Matrix, then Neo could easily turn out to be the next architect and Father. It makes their sex scene that much more meaningful, doesn’t it? Together they give birth to the new matrix. \*\* Then they’d neither be good nor bad, just perpetuating the cycle, unless they decide to get rid of the matrix altogether and free everyone, if that is possible. Significant or not, I didn’t need to see the scene drag on for so long. They love each other, they are hot together. Yes, I got it in the elevator, I get it now. Someone said before that the Architech noted the difference between Neo as The One vs. all the others as The One (yes, refraining from mentioning Jet Li) is his feelings for Trinity and that maybe Trinity is the key and actually The One. Maybe The Oracle had the genders mixed up and it’s just _Dead Again_. I know, doubt it. All I know is that at the end, I hope the message(s) – if there is one – is more than just the feel-good love conquers all and humans can control the destiny of their race and the world. It was such a hige letdown in _Contact_. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/295 "2003-05-20T23:58:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomyoung \* > \*\*Morpheus’s speech in the cave is the real giveaway, though. If you buy the theory that the goal of all political rhetoric is to get people to trade their skepticism away in order to be a part of something with meaning, or to give them the illusion of choice, then that’s exactly what Morpheus does. He whips Zion up into an anti-machine frenzy so that he can do their thinking for them. Plus the speech practically takes place in Plato’s cave, complete with dancing shadows. And a cave is also pretty metaphorically appropriate for someone pulling the wool over the eyes of the masses. All of this is in keeping with the Wachowskis’ apparent like for Foucault, Cornel West, and contempt for Bush, for example. I think Morpheus’s religious conviction is there to tempt Neo and Zion away from the true path of understanding, and that Morpheus is serving the interests of the Matrix in Zion. That’s also why Lawrence Fishburne made that comment about how his character is like “Darth Vader and Obi Wan Kenobi in one” comment on Charlie Rose. Neo will see past all of this and bring peace and harmony to AI and people, if in fact there is any difference between them. So anyway, Morpehus is like the Devil tempting Christ with lies and dreams. \*\* **tomyoung** , you just blew my mind! That would be a _very_ interesting path to take with the Morpheus character. Though I’m sure it would piss off a lot of fans if Morpheus is made into a villain. ---
**Author:** ![HideoHo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@HideoHo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HideoHo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/296 "2003-05-21T00:46:13Z")
For those of you who feel that the brothers are just tossing random things down, like Lucas, I think they’ve planned a lot more than you realize. Just go back to the first Matrix. Go to the scene where Mr. Anderson is taken into custody by the agents. Right at the beginning of that scene, look at the point of view you have. They show that at that point, the Architecht started watching Neo and you zoom into the scene through one of his TVs. It was a neat little effect in the first movie, but a great setup after watching the second. ---
**Author:** ![Methos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Methos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Methos)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/297 "2003-05-21T02:39:11Z")
Thanks for the help Max Harvey, I think I understand it better now 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/298 "2003-05-21T03:59:40Z")
Pablito brings up Smith’s motives. You imprinted your programming onto me somehow and took away my purpose … I want what you have … I want purpose. Or something like that. Neo is the seed of free will, of choice, of unpredictable choice rather than just cause and effect. Not just the illusion of choice, even the Architect and the Oracle attempt to contain the choices made and possible. That was what he infected Smith with. Smith then was no longer bound to his programming and could act on his true desires: to destroy all of the smelly vermin that is humanity; rather than function as an agent in the service of perpetuating it. He isn’t without plan or reason. He isn’t just after Neo; he is after Neo because he knows that he must destroy him in order to destroy humanity. He was also in pursuit of the keymaker. But sees pursuing Trinity as irrelevant. Why else if not to prevent Neo from getting to the Source and perpetuating humanity’s existence? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/299 "2003-05-21T06:06:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomyoung \* > \*\* > \*\* Actually, it’s weird that Smith would think that after completing his purpose, there would be any fate for him other than deletion. Maybe he wanted deletion. \*\* I think he does want deletion, because he’s unhappy with his existance. In the first movie, during the Morpheus interrogation, he says something like “Without Zion, there’s no reason for me to exist. I have to get out of here.” ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374/300 "2003-05-21T12:06:37Z")
Well, after watching the movie again… The ships do definatly have other weapons. The Neb has at least three weapon turrets. There’s is one above the “bridge” windows, looks like a two-gun affair (Probably cannons, might be miniguns, hard to tell). It has a chin turret of four guns, and they looked all like big-bore stuff. And a tail turret with a pair of what looked like miniguns. I’d assume the other ships have similar gear. So they do have more than just the EMPs The council was about half-black, and it looked like about half the rest were some other minority. And yeah, Bush does show up in the monitor when the architect speaks about the “varying grotesquities” of human nature (I think that was the line). However, so do about 50 different images, some with people and some without. I’m pretty sure I saw a fair number of politicians, such as Kenedy, so I don’t think it was “just” a dig at Bush so much as a dig at politicians in general. Though oddly, I missed Hitler. And in a few hours, I’m going to see it _again_. My dad wants to see it, too. I’ll see if I pick out any more details this time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/matrix-reloaded-plot-discussion-spoilers-galore-no-spoiler-boxes/175374.md?page=16)