Matthew Shepard died for our sins

God doesn’t hate anyone, struct. At least not as far as I’ve learned, though I admit I don’t know what’s in His heart. But God (the God I worship, at least, and the God Polycarp, RTFirefly, yosemitebabe and Duck Duck Goose [to name a few] worship) doesn’t hate.

An otherwise decent rant/OP, IMO. I also disagree with the bit about His sexuality, but that’s rather tangential (IMO, again). He (as far as I can remember) has never expressed His sexuality, and I don’t recall as He has any. He loves in a parental way, not a carnal way (which shouldn’t surprise you, since He is not flesh [except in persona Christi] and as such isn’t subject to its temptations).

Pardon me, but we have a few fundamentalists here, and they are very good and decent people. As far as Southern Baptists, what about Jimmy and Rosalyn Carter? I don’t think we need to wipe them out?

**

I’d like to read the cite for myself. However, giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming it’s an accurate poll, that still doesn’t make “the glass” 75% full, it just means that 75% of the populace, give or take a few percentage points, is willing to say that they’re in favor of a progressive course of action. That’s a far cry from that course of action actually being pursued. First of all, answering a question a certain way on a confidential poll is a far cry from taking that same stance in open view where one might be subject to the wrath of ones peers. I would lay dollars-to-donuts that that 75% figure plummets to 40% or less if the poll is conducted in a public forum (a verbal mall survey, for instance). Second of all, changing peoples attitudes alone won’t do the trick. In addition to the lion’s share of de facto discrimination, GLBT’s have to labor under the burden of a good number of de jure obstacles as well. The tide may be turning in Vermont and forward-thinking communities like my dear old Oak Park, but IMHO the proverbial glass is only just now being filled, and the GLBT glass is a lot more empty than the glass of other minorities.

**

“Thud… thud… thud…” that’s the sound of me kicking myself for not reading that article carefully enough. My bad. However, my point that the two men in question are not evil because they’re homosexual is still valid. They’re evil because they’re molesters, rapists and murderers, traits that are regretfully universal and not indiginous in any way to any minority.

**

You’re not the crowd I’m trying to score points with, so I won’t bother putting on a defense of how the prime content in my posts is neither extremist nor militant, even though my tone could be. However, I will say that your knee-jerk association of what I have to say with an ACT-UP shenanigan is very illustrative. It goes to show how rhetoric vented from anger can and will be seized upon by the other side and used as cannon fodder for its own purposes. I have unintentionally delivered rhetorical arms to the enemy, and I am wholeheartedly sorry for having done so and having hurt my cause in the process. I thought that the University experience had hewn me into always being a calm, rational, and logical orator, but clearly I’ve slipped this time and needed to be re-taught an important lesson. Well, the lesson has been well re-learned, sir. I’ll be seeing you elsewhere on the boards, and I’ll be armed with nothing but the facts, ma’am.

I would agree with you 100% on this point IF overt perpetrators of crimes against certain segments of humanity didn’t make it overtly clear what their intentions were – in the process driving a wedge into the populace so as to create factions and force a circling of the wagons in the interest of self-defense. Hate crimes are a grim reality, not a politically correct concoction, and if the prosecution in a given case can meet her/his burden of proof as to the crime being committed in furtherance of bigoted hatred, then why on Earth shouldn’t that be considered an aggravating factor?

I’ve certainly had plenty of moments where I felt that way. I certainly felt that way when I wrote the OP. However, elimination of every Southern Baptist for the sole reason that they’re Southern Baptists would be Phelpsian genocide, as evil an act as killing every GLBT for the sole reason that they’re GLBT.

[SELF-HIJACK]
A better solution IMHO would be a strong self-defense, which is why (watch out, ironic plot twist coming) I support second amendment rights. Hey, y’all thought I was a mindless bleeding heart liberal, didn’t you? Never expected that one, eh? :slight_smile: Nope, that’s one (and probably the only one) issue where my sympathies lie on the Republican side. Hate-mongers would have to think twice about hate-crimes if the possibility existed that their potential victim might be armed.
[/SELF-HIJACK]

Interesting and thought-provoking point you make there, a point which could be a good new thread spawner. It’s probably wrong to use “fundamentalist” as a blanket term, isn’t it? A good place to start examining the question would be my good friend dictionary.com:

fun·da·men·tal·ism Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.

  1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

2a. An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.

2b. Adherence to the theology of this movement.

Sounds pretty bad on the surface if you ask me, but the heart of that definition is the key phrase “fundamental principles”. It’s my experience that those principles are often wrong-headed, but Guinastasia makes the valid point that it ain’t always necessarily so. In a way, the points that I myself have made in this thread paint me as something of a fundamentalist in nature (except for the religious part, of course): I rigidly adhere to the fundamental principles of justice for all and bigotry against none, I insist that those doctrines cannot be in error by their very nature, I am intolerant of those who see otherwise, and I insist that my operative principles be implemented on a society-wide level. I’ve also shown that for those who are believers, there’s plenty of Scripture to back up my points. So, if you’re out there, I hope that you “good witch” fundamentalists will please turn up the volume, because all of the “bad witch” fundamentalists are giving you a bad name (and please hold off on the Wicca jokes, people :slight_smile: )

If they support the Southern Baptist Convention and its disgusting agenda of bigotry and its mission to deny all Americans equal rights, then they are not good people, and should be treated no differently than any other terrorist.

Everyone who gives money to the Southern Baptist Convention, Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson or any of their ilk helps to fund and suppport the institutional intolerance faced by gays each and every day.

If you give money to the Southern Baptist Convention, I want to thank you. Thank you for helping fund an organization that fights tooth and nail to prevent me from being able to marry, from being able to automatically inherit property from someone I am in a long term relationship with, from being able to hear ANYTHING positive about my orientation throughout my time in high school (which is already a very trying time for gays… it does no harm to have a teacher say “there’s nothing wrong with being gay” to any straight kids, and it could do a world of good for the gay kids in our schools).

I want to thank you for supporting an organization that lies about who people like me are (we do not choose our orientation, at least, no gay person I know did). About what we do (we are not all promiscuous Brian Kelley’s going around screwing everyone and everything). And about who we serve (I’ve never met a Southern Baptist whose half the Christian most gay Christians I know are).

And then I’d like to thank you to stay the fuck out of my business (don’t tell me who to love), the fuck out of my way (don’t try to force the government to descriminate against me) and the fuck out of my life (just in general).

And if you refuse to do that, then I kindly invite you to gather up all your kids and go play in heavy traffic.

Kirk

A collection of NY Times articles on the Matthew Shepard case can be found at

http://www.nytimes.com/ads/marketing/laramie/index.html

Registration may be required.

I will be perfectly happy to live and let live. Just don’t ask me to support any so-called Hate Crimes legislation.

http://www.nytimes.com/ads/marketing/laramie/index.html

It seems a link to the NY times will appear as it should in preview, but disappears when a post is submitted.

You are new, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, but perhaps you are unaware-the above is inappropriate in this forum.

I never said ANYTHING about supporting or not supporting your right to get married. You may want to visit your doctor about that knee jerk of your’s.
Get a grip on yourself.

Kirkland: I know that Kirk is personally acquainted with online conservative Baptists, some of whom meet his criteria for bigotry and many of whom do not.

His point, I think, was directed at the Religious Right takeover of the SBC of the past 20 years which has caused the gradual evacuation of that convention by the vast majority of people who are willing to evaluate scientific evidence and interpret the Bible according to what it suggests, who see gay people as human beings like themselves rather than active doers of the Devil’s work, and so on.

I’ve seen him trying to argue the point of human sexuality and its evaluation against people who are all too ready to cite a Bible quote and defend being negative against all gay people as a result (along with a couple who believe it defines what a Christian with gay desires ought himself to do but not what a Christian dealing with gay people ought to). I’ve seen him protest the citing of slanted news stories and be effectively ignored. (And I’ve seen him draw erroneous conclusions about those who did so.)

So if anyone is offended by his rhetoric, remember that he himself is a victim of such attitudes, and give him a little leeway in how he expresses himself.

= - = - =

Jesse Dirkhising: Anyone who sees this as in any way representative of what most gay people do should get a reality check. On the other hand, while the Advocate seems to have studiously ignored the issue, Atlanta’s gay weekly, the Southern Voice took a strong stand that gay people ought to address what happened there and come out as strongly condemning what happened.

With regard to Jesse himself, it appears that he was drawn to and enjoyed sexual relationships with older men. What that says about his developing sexuality is subject to interpretation by the individual.

= - = - =

Hate crimes legislation: My understanding of how such statutes work is either to give jurisdiction where a criminal act not only violates a particular statute governing criminal behavior but also violates another statute governing intent when committing such behavior, and/or to constitute an aggravating condition with reference to degrees of culpability. I fail to see what is improper about either of these stances, other than the “thought-crime” gimmick, which is not applicable. If you sincerely believe that the world would be a better place if all gays, all blacks, all Mormons, or whatever were dead, that’s your problem. If you act on this belief, you have not committed a “thought crime” but a normal action-with-criminal-intent crime per se, and your reasons for acting are within the purview of the court, same as if the question of whether this guy died when you hit him was because you were in a bar fight with him and were not aware of the potential he would die due to a medical condition if hit in that precise spot, or whether, knowing this, you hit and killed him because your fiancee stood to inherit most of his estate when he died. Hitting and killing him because he was gay, black, Mormon, or whatever and you hate gays, blacks, Mormons, or whatevers is the same sort of motive/intent question addressed by the above.

The Carters and other “good Southern Baptists”: There is something called the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, composed of churches (and individuals) who have withdrawn from the SBC because of its Neanderthal stances on many issues. The Carter family is (and made the news when they became) affiliated with the CBF, not the SBC. They are still “Southern Baptists” as being Baptists of Southern heritage, but not members of a church belonging to a convention of that name.

If you support fundamentalists, Southern Baptists, or other groups that work day and night to withhold true equality to all Americans, then it doesn’t matter what you personally think. You are suporting evil, and that makes you just as evil as the scum who run those so-called “Christians” churches.

There is no need for debate on these issues. There are simply two sides: those in favor of equality, and bigots who want to force the entire world to march lockstep to their twisted religious views. If you’re on the side of the bigots, or help support them in any way, you’re no different than the Ku Klux Klan or the other racists who tried to crush anyone who didn’t look like them in the past century. Only today, the bigots are hunting down anyone who doesn’t love like them. It’s all the same cancer, and all deserves the same cure: the elimination of the anti-equality bigots and all who support them.

Was I ever this young? :wink:

Re: Fundamentalism - painting with a broad brush is never a good idea, especially 'round these parts.

Re: The Roman Catholic Church - ACT-UP has zero to do with their intolerance.

Re: Angry Young Gay Men - been there, done that, do things different now. We all go through it. (Hell, my very first post on this very message board was a rant in the Pit on the very same issue.) This, too, shall pass, and change into something even better.

Esprix

In polycarp’s post above, the example of hitting a guy in a barfight without intent to kill would be probably be manslaughter, not murder with premeditation. Whether I kill you because I hate gays or because someone paid me to do it makes no difference. Hate as a motivation is no better or worse than greed.

What about equal protection for all victims?

Hate crime laws are un-American, and say that certain lives are worth more than others, and that is wrong.

Retribution for crime should be swift, viscious and merciless, regardless of the demographics of the victim or the attacker.

The point I was going for is that typically hate crimes laws address motive and function as a “classifier” of a crime. Hey, whether somebody died as a result of a cold-blooded premeditated act or through criminally negligent behavior, they’re still dead – but the culpability of the person who committed the act is quite different. In addition to which, in general all such laws are written in “neutral” ways – if I am killed by a bunch of Lesbian Greek Orthodox black women because I’m a WASP male, then they are as guilty of a hate crime as a gay-basher, an antisemite motivated by hatred of Jews, etc. It’s merely that there are suspect categories that are commonly the object of hate that makes people think anyone is especially protected – the laws themselves do not set up such categories. If Falwell’s 1980s stupidity about “mobs of gays targeting religious straight men” had any truth to it, it would be the sort of reverse bigotry that the law also encompasses.

I daresay you’re not very well-versed with hate crime laws, then. Polycarp’s explanation was pretty concise, so I suggest you read it again, as the laws proposed have nothing whatsoever to do with making one person’s life somehow more worthy than another’s. (Personally, I look at hate-motivated crimes as acts of terrorism.)

But perhaps this oughtn’t devolve into a thread about hate crimes, n’est-ce pas?

Esprix

If you pre-meditatedly (is that even a word?) murder someone you should get the same punishment (and it should swift, merciless and unbearable) regardless of if your motivation is hatred or greed or whatever. That’s just not right. The crime is the same, regardless of motivation: someone is dead. Whether greed or hate is worse offense is the kind of moral decision making I don’t care to let the incompetent bufoons that run our government make.

The penalty should be determined by the judge or jury, and not dictated by a group of legislators who are trying to win votes from blacks and gays. Hate crime laws are as bad as “three-strikes” laws – they are the legislature intruding deeply into the judiciary’s role of distributing punishments for the violation of the law.

Here it is, from 1998 http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/July98/073098d.htm. A more recent poll (6/2001) by Gallop showed 85% of Americans polled support equal opportunity in the workplace. 54% say homosexual relations between consenting adults should be legal, 52% say homosexuality is an acceptable “alternative lifestyle.” Further, 44% favor allowing homosexual couples to form civil unions and receive some legal rights of married couples, according to the poll.
That cite http://www.hrc.org/newsreleases/2001/010604gallup.asp by no means portrays everything as peachy-keen. As I pointed out earlier, those numbers are rapidly improving (a 13% increase in 3 years on the job discrimination query). Things will continue to improve if the use of vinegar, or tactics that include throwing Trojans at my grandmother while she’s in prayer are refrained from.

Speaking of which…

Here are some excerpts an old, but very balanced & well written editorial by Randy Shilts of the (now defunct?) SF Chronicle. There’s not a word here:http://www.aegis.com/news/sc/1989/SC891213.html that I could find disagreement with;

…(Are) AIDS protesters who have been disrupting services and vandalizing Catholic churches…being paid by some diabolical reactionary group dedicated to discrediting the gay community?
How inflamed the gay community would be if militant Catholics burst into the gay Metropolitan Community Church in the Castro area, scribbled anti-homosexual Bible verses on the walls and stopped the sermon until the police showed up? Churches in North Hollywood and West Hollywood were vandalized two weeks ago…ACT-UP invaded services at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York City…one protester even grabbed a Communion wafer -(symbolizing) the body of Christ – and threw it on the church floor. Boys With Arms Akimbo plastered the front door of St. Mary’s Cathedral with posters and red handprints meant to symbolize the blood on the church’s hands for their gay-related teachings. The(se) actions represent a troubling new turn in the wave of confrontational AIDS protests that has swept America.

It’s not surprising, of course, that these protests should materialize. The Catholic hierarchy’s staunch opposition to condoms and safe-sex education has long been derided by people working to prevent AIDS and just about every credible spokesman in the public health community.

The church’s sole advice to prevent AIDS – strict monogamy within one lifelong heterosexual marriage (and) long-standing enmity to all things homosexual also was bound to attract AIDS protesters, most of whom are from the lesbian and gay community. Many Catholic gays harbor deep-seated – and justifiable – anger toward a church that affirms homophobia as, quite literally, an article of faith.

That, however, does not give gay protesters the prerogative to deny Catholics their rights, including the right to worship and the right of their leaders to deliver whatever pronouncements they like without having to worry about the intimidation of vandals.

It is not only morally wrong to violate these rights – it is strategically stupid.

Messing around with houses of worship makes new enemies, not new friends. America has a long, ugly tradition of anti-Catholic prejudice, and undercurrents of it are certainly present in the rhetoric of some of the AIDS protesters.

There is a difference between opposing the doctrine of the Catholic hierarchy and opposing Catholics. Society should cast aside old prejudices and understand that every human has an intrinsic right to be treated with dignity, even if some of the person’s actions might be repugnant to others.

This is a message that both sides of the AIDS debate should take pains to heed.

Actually, if you had been paying attention, you’d realize that I happen to be an extremely liberal Catholic who believes in gay rights. I don’t agree with the position of the church-although they don’t believe gays are mentally ill-they DO now believe that it is something like being left-handed, but they believe gays should be celibate.

I do NOT agree with that.

And had you taken the time to read what I’ve written, you might have realized that before you went into a tantrum.

sigh

People rushing into a Mass and doing things like that-no, that is wrong. It doesn’t matter WHAT beef they had with the church.

You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.