# Maureen Dowd and "You Lie, Boy" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314 "2009-09-16T13:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/1 "2009-09-16T13:16:10Z")
I’ve been hearing about this lately – New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd speaks of the unvoiced “–boy!” at the end of Wilson’s outburst, and sees it as evidence of a racially-based dislike of Obama. [http://www.thestate.com/editorial-columns/story/943334.html?RSS=untracked](http://www.thestate.com/editorial-columns/story/943334.html?RSS=untracked) My question: Why does she hear echoes of “You lie, boy?” Is/was this a common put-down of blacks in the South? Under what circumstances? Her column doesn’t elaborate on it. Certainly I don’t hear that gibe “boy” in there, but I’m a damyankee, and it’s outside my cultural experience. Is this put-down the common thing her column suggests? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/2 "2009-09-16T13:43:24Z")
Yes, “boy” was used as a disparaging term in addressing Africo-Americans in the South, presumably as an affirmation of their lower station. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/3 "2009-09-16T13:55:59Z")
I know this is GQ, but IMHO the trend to associate criticisms of the President with racism, as Maureen Dowd, President Carter and others have done, is very disturbing. It essentially seeks to make dissent impossible by associating dissent with one of the ugliest characteristics out there. I am certain that there are many people who dislike anything the President does merely because he is black, but I am equally as certain that 1. those people are a minority and 2. most of those who disagree with him would be equally as vehement in their opposition if he was white. ---
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/4 "2009-09-16T13:56:28Z")
It’s disparaging in any context anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/5 "2009-09-16T13:57:06Z")
1967, _In the Heat of the Night_, Carroll O’Connor talking to Sidney Poitier– > [@](#): > > Gillespie: Whatcha hit him with? > Tibbs: Hit whom? > Gillespie: “Whom”? Are you a northern boy? What’s a northern boy doing down here? . Did this dialogue really reflect the part of the South that was racist at that point? You betcha! ---
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/6 "2009-09-16T13:58:47Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > … but I am equally as certain that 1. those people are a minority and 2. most of those who disagree with him would be equally as vehement in their opposition if he was white. But she’s talking about a specific guy, one who’s main claim to fame is defending flying the confederate flag on the statehouse lawn. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/7 "2009-09-16T14:02:39Z")
Yes, when the sanitation workers were on strike in Memphis (ML King’s “I have seen the promised land” speech), they carried placards that said, ["I AM A MAN."](http://blueherald.com/2009/01/mlk-day-2009-i-am-a-man/)Openly racist southerners would not call black men “men,” and that was a sore point. Also, next time you hear Bo Diddley’s _I’m a Man_, consider the possible hidden message. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/8 "2009-09-16T14:02:53Z")
> [@TheMadHun](#): > > But she’s talking about a specific guy, one who’s main claim to fame is defending flying the confederate flag on the statehouse lawn. You can always make a case that any individual may be a racist. But it is still a dangerous argument, much like in previous administrations the charge of “unpatriotic” or “unamerican” was used to label those who disagreed with the policies of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/9 "2009-09-16T14:03:17Z")
> [@TheMadHun](#): > > But she’s talking about a specific guy, one who’s main claim to fame is defending flying the confederate flag on the statehouse lawn. Well - that and saying that Strom Thurmond having a black child is a smear on his image and diminishes his legacy. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/10 "2009-09-16T14:07:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, “boy” was used as a disparaging term in addressing Africo-Americans in the South, presumably as an affirmation of their lower station. I’m perfectly aware of that – my question is "Why did she hear that “boy” appended to “you lie”. Is/was “You lie, boy” a common put-down in the south, so common that she automatically completed the sentence? Otherwise I don’t get why she “seemed to hear it”. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/11 "2009-09-16T14:12:24Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’m perfectly aware of that – my question is "Why did she hear that “boy” appended to “you lie”. Is/was “You lie, boy” a common put-down in the south, so common that she automatically completed the sentence? Otherwise I don’t get why she “seemed to hear it”. I understood your question, and I stand by my opinion that this is an attempt to discourage dissent by labeling it racism. And it is a dangerous path to take, because once the charge is made how can one defend dissent? Must every dissenting opinion be prefaced with “I am not a racist but…”? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/12 "2009-09-16T14:21:29Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’m perfectly aware of that – my question is "Why did she hear that “boy” appended to “you lie”. Is/was “You lie, boy” a common put-down in the south, so common that she automatically completed the sentence? Calling a black man “boy” used to be common in the deep South thirty or forty years ago. The exact phrase “you lie, boy” was not a stereotyped phrase, though. > [@](#): > > Otherwise I don’t get why she “seemed to hear it”. She didn’t hear it. She made it up. She’s playing the race card - anyone who criticizes Obama is a racist, in her book. Maureen Dowd is [not the most honest journalist you can find](http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1899530,00.html), and [has a history of doctoring quotes](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1320&dat=20030731&id=JtgRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SewDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6540,6796022) in order to be misleading about those with whom she disagrees politically. This is very likely to be another instance of this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/13 "2009-09-16T14:21:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I understood your question, and I stand by my opinion that this is an attempt to discourage dissent by labeling it racism. And it is a dangerous path to take, because once the charge is made how can one defend dissent? Must every dissenting opinion be prefaced with “I am not a racist but…”? Then why not answer it? The reason I put it here, rather than in Great Debates or The Pit is because I;m looking for an answer to a specific question – is there some pre-existing reason that she claimed to hear this formulation – that has an actual non-partisan answer – is “You lie, boy” a common expression, or was it ever. If not, her claiming that she felt Wilson was intending such a racist response is much more of a reach. Ridiculous and non-racist example: Dowd says that, when Wilson heckled the president with “Yabba Dabba”, she _knew_ he was going to say “Doo”, but left it off. Saying the “doo” would have shown Wilson’s anti-caveman bias, but she had a reasonable expectation that he was thinking it. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/14 "2009-09-16T15:17:58Z")
Boy in this context means nigger-lite. You can watch any movie with southern white man confronting a black man and you’ll hear something similar to “We don’t want your kind around here, (pause for effect) boy!” Dowd is saying that she believes much of the opposition to Obama is racist and Joe Wilson is one of the racists. Knowing that she contends that the (boy) in “You lie” is understood just as the (you) in “Pick up your toys” is understood. FTR Obama has already been called a boy([HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nick-antosca/rep-geoff-davis-just-call_b_96623.htm))l. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/15 "2009-09-16T15:18:17Z")
In a similar vein, can someone explain how they heard “boy” after “you lie!” I didn’t hear it, and I’m not sure why it’s being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/16 "2009-09-16T15:42:39Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > In a similar vein, can someone explain how they heard “boy” after “you lie!” I didn’t hear it, and I’m not sure why it’s being discussed. [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/opinion/13dowd.html?\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/opinion/13dowd.html?_r=1) > [@Maureen Dowd](#): > > Surrounded by middle-aged white guys — a sepia snapshot of the days when such pols ran Washington like their own men’s club — Joe Wilson yelled “You lie!” at a president who didn’t. > > But, fair or not, what I heard was an unspoken word in the air: You lie, boy! I presume she means to say that it was a word unspoken, but never-the-less “understood” or subliminally present. One of another issues that may be driving this type of counter-argument is that if the debatee (Mrs. Dowd) assumes that the debater is racist, than words or body language may be interpreted differently than they would if they were coming from an individual that the debatee does NOT assume to be a racist. Essentially, it’s like saying “This is what they REALLY think…”. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/17 "2009-09-16T15:48:28Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > I know this is GQ, but IMHO the trend to associate criticisms of the President with racism, as Maureen Dowd, President Carter and others have done, is very disturbing. It essentially seeks to make dissent impossible by associating dissent with one of the ugliest characteristics out there. > > I am certain that there are many people who dislike anything the President does merely because he is black, but I am equally as certain that 1. those people are a minority and 2. most of those who disagree with him would be equally as vehement in their opposition if he was white. Your point is a good one and requires an answer. First off, if you read her whole column you will see that she begins by saying that she has avoided identifying criticism with racism–until now, when the evidence seemed compelling. Not incontrovertible, but compelling. First, consider the phrase “You lie”. It is a somewhat unusual way of saying “Liar” and suggests that something further was on the tip of the tongue, but suppressed. In fact, the normal way of saying “You lie” is “You’re lying” and it is a very plausible inference that a third word was to come. Then she describes some previous evidence of racism on Wilson’s part. On the same page of the NY Times is an op/ed piece by Barbara Eherenreich (and a coauthor whose name I forget) that says that Fox printed a piece on its web site (Fox did not endorse it) asserting that Obama has figured out a way that only whites will pay for the medicare and only blacks will receive the benefits. Now we can all see that this is the ravings of a maniac, but the racism is blatant there and Fox did print it. This brings up a point that has seemed obvious to me for a long time. That one strong reason for opposition to social democracy in the US has been the perception that blacks would benefit more than whites. Notice that this isn’t wrong. It is more correct to say that under any social democratic scheme poor people will benefit more than middle class and well-to-do people and this will mean that blacks will benefit disproportionately, but so will poor whites. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/18 "2009-09-16T15:49:13Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > My question: Why does she hear echoes of “You lie, boy?” Is/was this a common put-down of blacks in the South? Under what circumstances? Her column doesn’t elaborate on it. Certainly I don’t hear that gibe “boy” in there, but I’m a damyankee, and it’s outside my cultural experience. Is this put-down the common thing her column suggests? People seem to be willfully excising the “boy” from “you lie, boy!” and addressing only that. I for one am confident you were aware that addressing a black man as “boy” was in the past patronizing, demeaning, and common in the South. Now it’s generally acknowledged to be insulting, for the same reasons. But to answe what you’re actually asking: Is “You lie, boy” some commonly used phrase or epithet in the South? No, and never has been. It’s not like “You dirty mother–” where everyone and their grandma is going to know what inevitably would have followed “mother” but was just left unvoiced. So she is hearing an “unvoiced” rider that obviously exists only because she put it there, as a shorthand for the racism she alleges underlaid Representative Wilson’s comment. And BTW I agree 100% with **lalenin**. I think ascribing every stupid thing you don’t agree with to racism muzzles public discourse and desensitizes us to actual racism. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/19 "2009-09-16T16:45:07Z")
Maureen Dowd once wrote a whole column about her imagined notion that Ken Starr was sexually obsessed with Monica Lewinsky. Apparently ascribing nasty thoughts to those she dislikes is part of her game. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/20 "2009-09-16T16:52:57Z")
> [@TheMadHun](#): > > It’s disparaging in any context anywhere. Oh? Unless I’m being wooshed, I’m curious to know how is it disparaging to use in trying to get the attention of, say, a five-year-old male child whose name you do not know? Or as a sign outside one of the restrooms in an elementary school? Or in reports of births of male children? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314.md?page=2)