# Maureen Dowd and "You Lie, Boy" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314 "2009-09-16T13:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/21 "2009-09-16T17:03:42Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Oh? Unless I’m being wooshed, I’m curious to know how is it disparaging to use in trying to get the attention of, say, a five-year-old male child whose name you do not know? Or as a sign outside one of the restrooms in an elementary school? Or in reports of births of male children? I believe the unspoken context there was clearly, “… when used to address an adult male.” ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/22 "2009-09-16T17:10:31Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I believe the unspoken context there was clearly, “… when used to address an adult male.” That differs significantly from what was actually said. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/23 "2009-09-16T17:27:16Z")
Well, I understood what was (presumably) meant, in the context of discussing calling an adult black man “boy,” and I think you’re being overly literal. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/24 "2009-09-16T17:36:15Z")
> [@](#): > > People seem to be willfully excising the “boy” from “you lie, boy!” and addressing only that. I for one am confident you were aware that addressing a black man as “boy” was in the past patronizing, demeaning, and common in the South. Now it’s generally acknowledged to be insulting, for the same reasons. > > But to answe what you’re actually asking: Is “You lie, boy” some commonly used phrase or epithet in the South? No, and never has been. It’s not like “You dirty mother–” where everyone and their grandma is going to know what inevitably would have followed “mother” but was just left unvoiced. Thank you, **Jodi** for answering that. It annoys me when folks are willfully obtuse. It annoys me (for other reasons) when they just think I’m dumb. I wasn’t aware of any tradition of saying “you lie, boy” that made Dowd’s assumption likely – it never showed up in books, movies, or radio. But I’ve learned in recent years that there were a lot of catchphrases and traditions that I hadn’t heard of that were derived from racist customs or practices, but that I hadn’t heard of, or was unaware were racist. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/25 "2009-09-16T18:08:08Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > 1967, _In the Heat of the Night_, Carroll O’Connor talking to Sidney Poitier– > > . > > Did this dialogue really reflect the part of the South that was racist at that point? You betcha! Rod Steiger? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/26 "2009-09-16T18:53:38Z")
I think it’s not that there’s a tradition of saying “You lie, **boy** ,” but that “You lie” is an odd turn of phrase without an attached epithet. Of course, that’s not to say that the epithet would necessarily be “boy”–it could just as easily be, “You lie, asshole,” or “You lie, communist atheist socialist pagan Muslim!” ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/27 "2009-09-16T18:59:10Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > 1967, _In the Heat of the Night_, Carroll O’Connor talking to Sidney Poitier– > [@Khadaji](#): > > Rod Steiger? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/28 "2009-09-16T19:12:40Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I think it’s not that there’s a tradition of saying “You lie, **boy** ,” but that “You lie” is an odd turn of phrase without an attached epithet. I don’t get this. “You lie!” is a perfectly grokable English sentence. Why is “you lie!” more odd than “you lie, sucker!”? To give limited credit where limited credit is due, the guy yelled “you lie!” as an unscripted verbal ejaculation\*. If on the tip of his tongue was some explicit insult to finish the phrase, he could have yelled the whole thing. Frankly, I find it intellectually dishonest to make the transgression even more egregious by adding to it some further insult that just wasn’t there. I refer not to you, but to Ms. Dowd. - [sub]Butthead: Heh heh. She said “ejaculation.”[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/29 "2009-09-16T19:26:20Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > I don’t get this. “You lie!” is a perfectly grokable English sentence. Why is “you lie!” more odd than “you lie, sucker!”? Grokable, sure, but it sounds stilted to me. I’d be much more likely to angrily exclaim, “You’re lying,” or, “You’re a liar,” or “That’s a lie!” “I read a book” is perfectly acceptable English, too, but how often do you actually hear people use that construction in conversation that isn’t taking place in a first-semester ESL class? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/30 "2009-09-16T19:28:28Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > To give limited credit where limited credit is due, the guy yelled “you lie!” as an unscripted verbal ejaculation\*. What evidence is their that Wilson didn’t go to the speech with the intent to confront? Lacking such evidence, how can anyone claim that even limited credit is due? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/31 "2009-09-16T20:10:55Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > What evidence is their that Wilson didn’t go to the speech with the intent to confront? > Lacking such evidence, how can anyone claim that even limited credit is due? The fact that he said so. He was asked if he has planned the comment, and he said no, it was spontaneous. Now, obviously he could be a big fat liar, but there is no evidence of that either. So regarding prior intent, all we have as what he said when he was asked. That may not be evidence you like, but it is in fact evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/32 "2009-09-16T20:12:23Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Grokable, sure, but it sounds stilted to me. I’d be much more likely to angrily exclaim, “You’re lying,” or, “You’re a liar,” or “That’s a lie!” Okay, but that’s you, right? > [@](#): > > “I read a book” is perfectly acceptable English, too, but how often do you actually hear people use that construction in conversation that isn’t taking place in a first-semester ESL class? 😕 More often then you, apparently: What did you do last night? I read a book. What do you do in your spare time? I read. What’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/33 "2009-09-16T20:14:47Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > What evidence is their that Wilson didn’t go to the speech with the intent to confront? > Lacking such evidence, how can anyone claim that even limited credit is due? From what I heard, he was noticeably embarrased by his outburst. Sure, maybe it was scripted and he was only pretending to be embarrased. But more likely it was spontaneous. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/34 "2009-09-16T20:20:56Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > More often then you, apparently: > > What did you do last night? > I read a book. > > What do you do in your spare time? > I read. > > What’s the problem? I assume he meant “read” pronounced as “I reed a book.” ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/35 "2009-09-16T20:23:16Z")
Just coming in to add that apparently referring to a grown black man as a boy is not always bad. At least I don’t recall anyone calling President Carter a racist when he said: "JIM LEHRER: And do you think that – if it happens that he is elected, or even just being nominated, is – will send positive ripple effects throughout the country on the race issue? JIMMY CARTER: Around the world. Around the world. And I think it already has sent a wave of approbation and admiration in many countries around the world, just knowing that **this black boy** who grew up with just a loving mother and grandparents – and that was about all he had to start with – does now have a chance to become the nominee of the Democratic Party for president." In a [PBS interview last year](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec08/sbcarter_08-25.html). ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/36 "2009-09-16T20:24:50Z")
Still fine. \*What do you do in your spare time? I read a book, I watch a movie, listen to some music. Stuff like that.\* Sorry, Quote function screwed up again. That was in reply to **The Other Waldo Pepper**. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/37 "2009-09-16T20:30:10Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > Just coming in to add that apparently referring to a grown black man as a boy is not always bad. Read it for content. Carter was talking about Obama’s \*boyhood \*when he referred to him as a boy. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/38 "2009-09-16T20:43:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I assume he meant “read” pronounced as “I reed a book.” But then the analogous phrase isn’t “I read a book” but “I read.” (I read/you lie – present tense verb with no object.) What’s wrong with “I read?” I’m still not seeing a problem. My point is just because it sounds odd or awkward _to you_ (general you), that doesn’t mean he must have meant to say something else, or something more, that wouldn’t sound as awkward _to you_. I see nothing odd about shouting “You lie!” at someone you think is lying – y’know, if we overlook the whole shouting at the President aspect of it. Certainly it seems the shakiest of bases for theorizing he must have meant to say something even worse. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/39 "2009-09-16T21:01:58Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > But then the analogous phrase isn’t “I read a book” but “I read.” (I read/you lie – present tense verb with no object.) What’s wrong with “I read?” I’m still not seeing a problem. No, I think you’re missing his point – though I should maybe back out and let _ **him** _ make it, if this keeps up. Still, I figure the analogy would be more like what aldi just did: the claim is that “I read a book,” all by itself, sounds a little weird in present tense unless we tack something additional on – in this case, setting it up with a question before following it with yet more present-tense stuff. _“I reed a book”_ sounds about as strange _“You lie”_ all by itself – the implication being that it’d only sound perfectly normal if we threw in some extra stuff > [@](#): > > My point is just because it sounds odd or awkward _to you_ (general you), that doesn’t mean he must have meant to say something else, or something more, that wouldn’t sound as awkward _to you_. > > I see nothing odd about shouting “You lie!” at someone you think is lying – y’know, if we overlook the whole shouting at the President aspect of it. Certainly it seems the shakiest of bases for theorizing he must have meant to say something even worse. As it happens, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/40 "2009-09-16T21:21:39Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > No, I think you’re missing his point – though I should maybe back out and let _ **him** _ make it, if this keeps up. Still, I figure the analogy would be more like what aldi just did: the claim is that “I read a book,” all by itself, sounds a little weird in present tense unless we tack something additional on – in this case, setting it up with a question before following it with yet more present-tense stuff. _“I reed a book”_ sounds about as strange _“You lie”_ all by itself – the implication being that it’d only sound perfectly normal if we threw in some extra stuff. I understand the argument. I am saying I don’t buy it. I don’t think “I read a book” sounds particularly strange. “What do you do in your spare time?” “I read a book.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314.md?page=3)