# Maureen Dowd and "You Lie, Boy" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314 "2009-09-16T13:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/81 "2009-09-17T17:00:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, there’s [this song](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwgv94sxlZg). Can you please transcribe the relevant line(s)? I can’t get to YouTube or any other other streaming media from work. > [@](#): > > Or as Touchstone in As You Like it put it “If again it was not well cut, he would say I lied: this is called the countercheck quarrelsome.” That’s an indirect quote. I’m looking for an interjection of “You lie” as a single sentence (not part of a sentence, or an indirect quote) without an attached epithet. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/82 "2009-09-17T17:10:33Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Can you please transcribe the relevant line(s)? I can’t get to YouTube or any other other streaming media from work. The refrain: > [@](#): > > You lie to me a first time > You’ll lie to me again > You pushed me out the front door > While some stranger’s walking in > The way you say you love me is as ugly as sin > You lie, you lie, you lie There’s also The Simpsons: > [@](#): > > Homer: Mmmm…Horse Douvers… > Marge: Homer! You promised! > Homer: I promised I wouldn’t eat? Never! You lie! But in seriousness, you haven’t heard the term “You lie”, before? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/83 "2009-09-17T17:14:24Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The refrain: > > > [@](#): > > > > You lie, you lie, you lie > > But in seriousness, you haven’t heard the term “You lie”, before? Not as a standalone interjection, no. It always comes with an epithet attached. “Liar, you lie,” “You lie, asshole,” etc. The song chorus doesn’t quite seem to fit it, either. It’s “You lie,” but it’s (a) repeated and (b) not really an interjection. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/84 "2009-09-17T17:26:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Not as a standalone interjection, no. It always comes with an epithet attached. “Liar, you lie,” “You lie, asshole,” etc. Again, not true, based on my own experience. I cited one episode of MWC, for example, wherein it most certainly WAS used as a standalone epithet. In fact, the dramatic (almost poetic) phrasing is what made it stand out in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/85 "2009-09-17T17:27:00Z")
Dowd and her ilk want this to be more than it is. It was one guy who made an ass of himself on national TV. The only thing that Dowd or anyone else who carries this particular torch is hoping to prove is that conservative = bigoted. It doesn’t. Once again, meaningless, move on. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/86 "2009-09-17T18:14:53Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I cited one episode of MWC, for example, wherein it most certainly WAS used as a standalone epithet. In fact, the dramatic (almost poetic) phrasing is what made it stand out in my mind. I’ll have to take your word for it that you’re remembering it correctly. That it stood out in your mind does emphasize that it’s certainly not a common usage, though. I will, however, concede that it does demonstrate that people may use it \*sans \*epithet. Of course, then we get into the issue of it being on broadcast TV, where people regularly speak in an unnatural way so as to avoid “inappropriate” language. I can cite at you where “This is what happens when you meet a stranger in the Alps!” was dubbed as new audio for a line in _The Big Lebowski_, but it doesn’t mean that’s what someone would actually say in real life. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/87 "2009-09-17T19:34:08Z")
While I think Dowd was way out of line in calling the action racist because of something she thought might have been on Wilson’s mind, let’s keep in mind that she’s an Op Ed writer, not a hard news reporter. She’s paid to give us her opinion. If that’s what she thinks (or thinks will sell newspapers), so be it. If enough people are upset with her work that it’s a net loss for papers to carry her, the market will take care this situation. ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/88 "2009-09-17T20:34:43Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I cited one episode of MWC, for example, wherein it most certainly WAS used as a standalone epithet. In fact, the dramatic (almost poetic) phrasing is what made it stand out in my mind. I agree. It’s poetry and they are poets. Bud Bundy, Homer Simpson, and Joe Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/89 "2009-09-17T20:57:19Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Dowd and her ilk want this to be more than it is. It was one guy who made an ass of himself on national TV. The only thing that Dowd or anyone else who carries this particular torch is hoping to prove is that conservative = bigoted. It doesn’t. Once again, meaningless, move on. Nevertheless, it is an undeniable and a very important fact to keep in mind that in America bigoted = conservative (not Pub, but conservative), even if the reverse does not hold true in all cases. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/90 "2009-09-17T21:00:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nevertheless, it is an undeniable and a very important fact to keep in mind that in America bigoted = conservative (not Pub, but conservative), even if the reverse does not hold true in all cases. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/91 "2009-09-17T21:54:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, there’s [this song](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwgv94sxlZg). There’s also “You Lie” by the great Reba McIntyre: _You lie, you don’t want to hurt me, So you lie, buy a little time, And I go along, what else can I do, Maybe it’s wrong but you know how much I love you, So you lie._ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/92 "2009-09-17T22:14:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bullshit. How many liberal Klansmen do you think there are? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/93 "2009-09-17T22:25:48Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’ll have to take your word for it that you’re remembering it correctly. That it stood out in your mind does emphasize that it’s certainly not a common usage, though. I will, however, concede that it does demonstrate that people may use it \*sans \*epithet. You’re makin way too much of this. The comment stood out in my mind because it was the perfect rejoinder. The phrasing and the comedic timing made the phrase truly memorable. This does not, in any way, mean that such phrasing is weird or rare. We could argue all day long about whether it’s “common” or not, but there is certainly nothing unusual about this phrasing. Nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/94 "2009-09-17T22:28:01Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’ll have to take your word for it that you’re remembering it correctly. Since you’re apparently still skeptical, [you can check it out for yourself](http://www.albundy.net/marriedaniac/ate/script/0607t.html). Those were indeed his exact words. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/95 "2009-09-17T22:36:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How many liberal Klansmen do you think there are? How does that prove that bigoted = conservative? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/96 "2009-09-17T22:47:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How does that prove that bigoted = conservative? I mean simply that American bigots (in which category I am not including the Rev. Wright, and only an idiot would :rolleyes:) are also, nearly universally, politically/socially conservative. Not all conservatives are bigots, but most bigots are conservative. How many exceptions can you think of? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/97 "2009-09-17T22:59:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How many exceptions can you think of? I can think of a notable exception on these boards (no, not anyone participating in this discussion), but stating anything more specific would run afoul of the forum rules. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/98 "2009-09-17T23:26:41Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > I think this whole thread is based on a misunderstanding of Dowd’s point. > > I don’t think Dowd meant anyone other than her was literally thinking of adding the word “boy” after “you lie.” > > She believes (and not unreasonably so) that race is a factor in the treatment of Obama, including Wilson shouting “You lie!” > > “Boy” was “in the air” not because anyone actually thought it, but because the practice of calling Black men “boy” is based on similar racial feelings to those experienced by Wilson and his like. What **Carmady** said. Not unusually for the SDMB, a lot of people here seem to be hung up on picking semantic nits and are thus missing the point. Dowd’s exact words were “But, fair or not, what I heard was an unspoken word in the air: You lie, boy!” She’s not claiming that Wilson actually used the word “boy” or even that he cut himself off just before saying “boy”. She’s saying that she believes – and she even acknowledges that this might be unfair – that Wilson’s outburst was at least partly because he’s a racist who has a problem with black people who aren’t being subservient to whites. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/99 "2009-09-18T00:28:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I mean simply that American bigots (in which category I am not including the Rev. Wright, and only an idiot would :rolleyes:) are also, nearly universally, politically/socially conservative. Well, now your back-pedaling, but I still call bullshit. Bigots come in all shapes and sizes, and are not just racists. There are plenty of liberals who are fiercely wedded to their belief system and are intolerant of conservatives. If this were a different forum, I could name quite a few who post here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/100 "2009-09-18T00:54:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, now your back-pedaling, but I still call bullshit. Bigots come in all shapes and sizes, and are not just racists. There are plenty of liberals who are fiercely wedded to their belief system and are intolerant of conservatives. If this were a different forum, I could name quite a few who post here. I was using the word “bigoted” the way I understood **buttonjockey308** to be using it in post #85, to mean, not “inflexibly dogmatic in world-view,” but, “prejudiced against certain racial, ethnic or religious groups.” The latter is, of course, the sense more relevant to this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314.md?page=6)