# Maureen Dowd and "You Lie, Boy" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314 "2009-09-16T13:16:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/101 "2009-09-18T02:13:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I was using the word “bigoted” the way I understood **buttonjockey308** to be using it in post #85, to mean, not “inflexibly dogmatic in world-view,” but, “prejudiced against certain racial, ethnic or religious groups.” The latter is, of course, the sense more relevant to this thread. Prejudiced against certain political groups is no different from prejudice against religious groups. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/102 "2009-09-18T02:15:43Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Also, next time you hear Bo Diddley’s _I’m a Man_, consider the possible hidden message. Pretty sure that was Muddy Waters… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/103 "2009-09-18T02:32:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Prejudiced against certain political groups is no different from prejudice against religious groups. WTF?! **Of course** it’s different! Religious groups can coexist peacefully if they just avoid being assholes. But, as there’s only one state/society to get your way in or not, being engaged in politics at all necessarily means being engaged **against opponents;** hostility is part of the game – and that kind of “prejudice” is not always irrational, the way racial/ethnic/religious prejudice is. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/104 "2009-09-18T03:12:38Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Pretty sure that was Muddy Waters… The original is by Bo Diddley. Muddy Waters (and many others) covered it. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/105 "2009-09-18T03:13:25Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > Just coming in to add that apparently referring to a grown black man as a boy is not always bad. At least I don’t recall anyone calling President Carter a racist when he said: > > "JIM LEHRER: And do you think that – if it happens that he is elected, or even just being nominated, is – will send positive ripple effects throughout the country on the race issue? > > JIMMY CARTER: Around the world. Around the world. And I think it already has sent a wave of approbation and admiration in many countries around the world, just knowing that **this black boy** who grew up with just a loving mother and grandparents – and that was about all he had to start with – does now have a chance to become the nominee of the Democratic Party for president." > > In a [PBS interview last year](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec08/sbcarter_08-25.html). I don’t excuse Carter but I do give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s a walking corpse held together by sheer willpower. I gave same deference to Barbara Bush’s ridiculously racist diatribe about Hurriane Katrina evacuees. Wilson doesn’t get a pass in my book because he appears to have all of his faculties. However flawed. - Honesty P.S. I think you guys ill get a kick out of [this](http://www.cagle.com/news/YouLie/images/jones.gif), [this](http://www.cagle.com/news/ObamaHealthcareSpeech/images/sack.jpg), [this](http://www.cagle.com/news/ObamaHealthcareSpeech/images/matson.jpg), and **especially** [this](http://www.cagle.com/news/YouLie/images/stahler.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/106 "2009-09-18T14:41:50Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > There’s also “You Lie” by the great Reba McIntyre: > > _You lie, you don’t want to hurt me, > So you lie, buy a little time, > And I go along, what else can I do, > Maybe it’s wrong but you know how much I love you, > So you lie._ I don’t see how that fits. None of those are phrased as interjections, and none of them are a single sentence consisting solely of “you lie.” ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/107 "2009-09-18T15:28:13Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I don’t see how that fits. None of those are phrased as interjections, and none of them are a single sentence consisting solely of “you lie.” So multiple cites of the phrase – not sentence – being used independently are not good enough for you, because you can distinguish them all. Which you know; fine. Whatevs. Hell if I remember why I cared about this in the first place, but I certainly don’t at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/108 "2009-09-18T16:40:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > While I think Dowd was way out of line in calling the action racist because of something she thought might have been on Wilson’s mind, let’s keep in mind that she’s an Op Ed writer, not a hard news reporter. She’s paid to give us her opinion. If that’s what she thinks (or thinks will sell newspapers), so be it. If enough people are upset with her work that it’s a net loss for papers to carry her, the market will take care this situation. She’s printed in one of the major US newspapers (a paper that is in trouble but still a seriously respected paper) and is deemed to be credible. She isn’t. On any level. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/109 "2009-09-18T16:49:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > While the case we’re talking about NOW is debatable, do you honestly think that it’s beyond possible that Ken Starr WASN’T obsessed? :dubious: Obsessed with investigating Bill Clinton, maybe. Maybe. [Sexually obsessed with Monica Lewinsky](http://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/23/opinion/liberties-legacy-of-lust.html?), no basis at all. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/110 "2009-09-18T17:11:18Z")
Wilson is trying to be another right wing “voice”. He knew that that shout out would get him in the spotlight and help his standing and campaign. He’s getting just what he wanted: Media coverage as the “mad as hell, outraged, ain’t gonna take it guy” is helping his standing back home. Donations are way up. Next might be tearing up the bill on the house floor…or flipping off Obama for the camera. It’s all show to get noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/111 "2009-09-18T17:28:53Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > P.S. I think you guys ill get a kick out of [this](http://www.cagle.com/news/YouLie/images/jones.gif), [this](http://www.cagle.com/news/ObamaHealthcareSpeech/images/sack.jpg), [this](http://www.cagle.com/news/ObamaHealthcareSpeech/images/matson.jpg), and **especially** [this](http://www.cagle.com/news/YouLie/images/stahler.jpg). I posted [this](http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/duuuh%2c-everyone-tells-jimmy-carter-200909172068/) satirical take in another related thread, but this one is more relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/112 "2009-09-18T17:29:08Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > So multiple cites of the phrase – not sentence – being used independently are not good enough for you, because you can distinguish them all. Which you know; fine. Whatevs. Hell if I remember why I cared about this in the first place, but I certainly don’t at this point. We’re discussing it specifically in the context of just using “You lie” as an interjection, by itself, with nothing else. \*\*That \*\*is what we’re saying sounds odd. So, shockingly, having it attached to anything else (or used in a work of fiction that is necessarily censored based on its medium) isn’t going to be the most convincing argument ever. It’s like I just saw a heart lying out on a counter, and said, “Gee, that’s odd, you don’t normally see something like that,” and you pointed to a bunch of people’s chests and said I was wrong and there was nothing remarkable about it. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/113 "2009-09-18T17:56:50Z")
Jeez, you people are being way too literal. I don’t think Dowd thought there was anything about the exact phrase “You lie” that implied “boy”, it’s that this unprecedented heckling during a Presidential address to Congress was so different than how former Presidents were treated that she thought the word “boy” was implied. Given the history of Wilson and the state he represents, that’s within the realm of possibility. She is using poetic license. If someone’s words are described as “dripping with scorn” it’s not saying that there were actual droplets of scorn that had to be mopped up. This hashing out of whether “you lie” is used in common speech is entirely missing the point. And by that I don’t mean that there is an actual “point” that you aimed at and failed to hit. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/114 "2009-09-18T18:10:01Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > If someone’s words are described as “dripping with scorn” it’s not saying that there were actual **droplets of scorn** that had to be mopped up. Band name! (Bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/115 "2009-09-18T18:59:04Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Band name! Would not go see. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/116 "2009-09-18T21:17:04Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > … and none of them are a single sentence consisting solely of “you lie.” Although the first comes tolerably close. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/117 "2009-09-18T21:23:13Z")
It’s close, but it’s not exact, and it’s not conversational. Neither music nor television are a perfect analogue to actual conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/118 "2009-09-18T21:45:40Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Neither music nor television are a perfect analogue to actual conversation. True. But both regularly spawn phrases that make it into conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/119 "2009-09-18T21:58:37Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > True. But both regularly spawn phrases that make it into conversation. So Wilson is just a really enthused Reba McIntyre fan? ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314/120 "2009-09-18T23:29:49Z")
If I had been there, I would have shouted: “That’s a lie! Harry Bailey went to war! He got the Congressional Medal of Honor! He saved the lives of every man on that transport!” So tv/movies do influence one’s enraged outbursts. You should also take into account the subtle differences: “That’s a lie” is too specific. “You’re a liar” is not specific enough. “You lie!” is just right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maureen-dowd-and-you-lie-boy/510314.md?page=7)