# Maus, by Art Spiegelman, banned by McMinn County (TN) school board **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comic-books-manga\ **Created:** [January 28, 2022, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557 "2022-01-28T10:33:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/161 "2022-02-01T16:17:18Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think many of them may be willing to have kids learn about the Holocaust – as long as it’s sanitized enough so that it’ll go into their heads as ‘this is something that happened long ago and doesn’t really have anything to do with us now.’ Exactly. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > > Again with the medical nudity… is it just _that impossible_ to avoid false equivalences here? > > It’s not a false equivalence. The nudity in medical books is there for instruction. The nudity in Maus is there for instruction. This. Again, have you SEEN the image? It’s tiny, it’s clinical, and it’s there for instruction. “This is what suicide looks like”. So, yeah, if you are okay with medical nudity, this should fall under the same rules. Unless you are not okay with the instructive purpose. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/162 "2022-02-01T16:20:45Z")
You don’t have to be a Nazi to be a fascist. No one is saying that they are all Nazis, but you seem to be agreeing that they are fascist. Good luck in your battle royale against those strawmen that you’ve built, though. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/163 "2022-02-01T16:23:50Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I could try to restate the nuances I’m trying to get at, but given the bad faith on display here, […] I want to make it absolutely clear that I did not start this thread in bad faith. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/164 "2022-02-01T16:25:24Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think many of them may be willing to have kids learn about the Holocaust – as long as it’s sanitized enough so that it’ll go into their heads as ‘this is something that happened long ago and doesn’t really have anything to do with us now.’ Aka the “boy with the striped pajamas” version of history. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/165 "2022-02-01T16:26:30Z")
And I don’t think that anyone was participating in it in bad faith either. Just someone who feels that if you don’t agree with them, then you must be participating in bad faith. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/166 "2022-02-01T16:26:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You don’t have to be a Nazi to be a fascist. No one is saying that they are all Nazis, but you seem to be agreeing that they are fascist. I think the term “fascist” has been overused to the point of meaninglessness, and I don’t think labeling them as such tells us much about what’s going on here. But if the level of discourse here is “are they fascists or not”, then fine, they’re fascists after a sense. They are bad people. They did a bad thing. Not nice at all. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/167 "2022-02-01T16:28:14Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I will say that if you narrowly interpret this event to mean that everyone in this school district is a closet Nazi, you’ve missed the point. If you think the main motivation is to hide the Holocaust, you’ve missed the point. I will say that it would be nice if you’d respond to what I’ve actually been saying. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If you think they’re anxious that their kids might see comparisons between them and Nazis, you’ve missed the point. If you’re intent on finding Nazis behind every bush, you may not properly see the monster that actually does jump out of the bush at some point. > > To be clear, there is something insidious and authoritarian going on here. If there were one or two actual Nazis involved, acting for Nazi motivations, it would not surprise me. There are multiple overlapping strands of coercion and authoritarianism in play here. Yup. And those are the actual monsters behind the bush. Which are made harder to see, not easier, if nobody’s allowed to look full on at their kindred. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/168 "2022-02-01T16:29:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I will say that it would be nice if you’d respond to what I’ve actually been saying. Yes, well, welcome to the club. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/169 "2022-02-01T16:36:37Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > > > To be fair, the whole “bad language” thing is confusing; I thought the region was rather Trumpy and thus had no problem with “locker room talk”… > > I can promise you that you can go into any school library in the south and scour it for any sexualized mention of “pussy” and not find it. Er, you _do_ realize that this is confirming, not refuting, the conclusion that the “OMG naughtyness!” outcries are finely selective based on whether or not they are convenient in a given context, right? ---
**Author:** ![Hermione1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d07c76/32.png) [@Hermione1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione1)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/170 "2022-02-01T16:45:46Z")
Exactly. During that segment, all of the human characters were wearing animal masks, not portrayed as animals as in the rest of the book. At another point during this segment, Art, in his narration, mentions that his shrink had lots of stray dogs and cats, and wondered “Should I mention this, or would it louse up my metaphor?” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/171 "2022-02-01T16:46:00Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I think the term “fascist” has been overused to the point of meaninglessness, and I don’t think labeling them as such tells us much about what’s going on here. I think that fascism is being used more often due to the rise of fascism in the open in our country. Overused, probably, but only because there is so much of it these days. Trust me, I’d like nothing better to no longer need to use the word to describe fellow countrymen, but that’s up to them, not me. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But if the level of discourse here is “are they fascists or not” But that’s not the level of discourse. It is to some extent, being brought down to that, as for some reason, people are claiming that a " . . " is enough to put southern sensibilities into a tizzy, and that it has nothing, absolutely nothing at all to do with the actual subject matter. There are two groups of people that are saying that. Those who are lying and promoting that as the reason that they don’t like this book, and those gullible enough to believe them. No one else is fooled. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > they’re fascists after a sense. They are bad people. They did a bad thing. Not nice at all. Not all fascists are bad people. They are just authoritarian, and as long as you don’t question their authority, and do exactly as they command you, you can get along with most of them just fine. Fascism is attractive, if you are the one in charge. You don’t have to be a bad person to be attracted to it, you just have to be weak willed enough that you can’t stand to have anyone disagree with you. It really only becomes a problem if you are not the one in charge, and you don’t agree with those who are. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/172 "2022-02-01T16:50:35Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > in _this_ context it does bear mentioning that evangelicals _very commonly_ censor their childrens’ internet. Yes, they have draconian firewalls in their own homes. For chrissakes they put spyware _on their own devices_ so their spouse can police them for straying too far from Jesus. I’ve had a distant relative in Mississippi start a software company _for this very purpose_ . Coming back to this: I have no problem believing that they’re trying to control their children’s internet access. (Why, even way up here in New York State my computer offers me the opportunity to use “parental controls.”) I have a major problem believing that they’re succeeding in controlling their children’s internet access, to the point at which those kids can’t see a female nipple in any context, or even to the point at which they can’t see one in a sexualized context. Which, again, Maus is not. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/173 "2022-02-01T17:00:07Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I have a major problem believing that they’re succeeding in controlling their children’s internet access, Neighbor’s, friends, or just defeating the controls that the less tech savy parents put on. But even before the internet, there were nipples to be had. I had friends that had gotten into their parent’s (well father’s, I’m sure) “collection” and we spent many hours pouring over the articles in playboy, or a friend with an older brother who would buy such paraphernalia. If these parents really think that they are keeping their children away from naughty images, they are just as gullible as those who believe that the naughty images are the reason for the objection to Maus. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/174 "2022-02-01T17:00:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But that’s not the level of discourse. It is to some extent, being brought down to that, as for some reason, people are claiming that a " . . " is enough to put southern sensibilities into a tizzy, and that it has nothing, absolutely nothing at all to do with the actual subject matter. > > There are two groups of people that are saying that. Those who are lying and promoting that as the reason that they don’t like this book, and those gullible enough to believe them. No one else is fooled. Yeah, this would be like claiming that they were against CRT (and let’s be fair, these are the same people) because they’re afraid that their kids will hear about sex thanks to the fact that Thomas Jefferson raped an underaged slave multiple times. No, Sharon, the problem isn’t the sexual undertones. It’s that your great great grandparents owned, abused, and often raped other human beings and that your parents, the bank owners, wouldn’t give them mortgages for houses in certain areas nor let them drink from the same water fountains. Or, as someone said much better than I… > The people who threw rocks at Ruby Bridges for trying to go to school are now upset that their grandchildren might learn about them throwing rocks at Ruby Bridges for trying to go to school. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/175 "2022-02-01T17:02:30Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I have a major problem believing that they’re succeeding in controlling their children’s internet access, to the point at which those kids can’t see a female nipple in any context, or even to the point at which they can’t see one in a sexualized context. Yes, they’re probably not successfully filtering everything out. No filter does. No policy or law stops every infraction, yet somehow we still have policies and laws intended to stop infractions. Why do we bother with laws at all? It’s truly a conundrum for the ages. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@bmoak1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak1)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/176 "2022-02-01T17:35:01Z")
I went into way too deep of a dive on Twitter and other places over the Maus controversy and unfortunately didn’t bookmark anything and have supporting looks and no time to really go digging for them. A few points I’ve picked up: -Maybe Braveheart is not the the best example to use. I’m willing to bet money that every single board member who thinks Maus is too much for 13 year-olds would have absolutely no qualms about sending their much younger kids and grandkids off with a church youth group to see The Passion of the Christ. -Thinking that the tender age of the students is the primary factor behind the ban is mistaken. In the notes, one of the board members states he doesn’t want Maus “foisted off” on students in another grade and didn’t get pushback or disagreement. Also, while I haven’t been able to find an official source for this and my Google-fu has failed me, I’ve seen it stated that the “anti-CRT” law TN passed last year has a provision that books yanked/removed by the school board cannot be used in the curriculum for another subject or another grade. More in the future…. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/177 "2022-02-01T17:52:04Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > The real, _private_ reason (to me it’s obvious, but that’s just me) is they don’t want kids learning about the bogus Holocaust My own personal opinion/suspicion is that different people have different real, private reasons. For some, it really is an objection to the “profanity” and or the nudity: they have an idea in their minds that things studied in school shouldn’t be “dirty.” For some, it’s about keeping their kids innocent and sheltered and not having them grow up too fast or be exposed to things that are too shocking and horrific. And for some it is about Holocaust denial, or at least about wanting to control the message. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/178 "2022-02-01T18:14:53Z")
Arguing that it’s all about making sure kids don’t learn about the Holocaust or see parallels to what’s happening today - that’s an extreme boogeyman. There are certainly some parents who are this extreme, but the majority of these parents aren’t actual fascists. I think the driving force for most of these parents is unwillingness to accept any responsibility for what happened in the past and what can be done now. They don’t want their kids to feel guilty or upset. I bet a lot of them would be OK with the “pajamified” version of Holocaust history that provides distance from the events, is told from a perspective they can relate to instead of the victims’, and allows kids to see themselves as an innocent bystander or helper. (really, read the Twitter thread **Cervaise** linked in post109). No doubt, this attitude is dangerous and allows the fascists to flourish. But labelling them all as fascists and Holocaust deniers is wrong and unhelpful. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/179 "2022-02-01T18:24:42Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I think the driving force for most of these parents is unwillingness to accept any responsibility for what happened in the past and what can be done now. They don’t want their kids to feel guilty or upset. The explains why they downplay slavery and Jim Crow and segregation and racism as they do, but why this? This happened in a different country, by different people. It’s unlikely that these parents were from Germany in the 1930’s to 40’s. Of course the people who did live in Germany in the 30’s and 40’s are the first to denounce Nazis and the Holocaust. Why would they think that their kids will feel guilty or upset? > [@TroutMan](#): > > I bet a lot of them would be OK with the “pajamified” version of Holocaust history that provides distance from the events, is told from a perspective they can relate to instead of the victims’, and allows kids to see themselves as an innocent bystander or helper. Right, “Long ago, some bad people did some bad things. Class dismissed.” And why can’t the children see themselves as an innocent bystander _and_ helper after hearing the whole story? That’s what the US was in WWII. We didn’t put people in concentration camps. We were the helpers, we liberated the concentration camps. When I learned about WWII and the Holocaust, it made me more proud to be a US citizen, to know that we helped to stop such atrocities. How do you possibly get that they should or would feel guilt? I really don’t get your argument, it’s like you just reskinned the south’s objection to teaching about slavery and plopped it into this debate with pretty much no thought behind how they are not at all related. > [@TroutMan](#): > > But labelling them all as fascists and Holocaust deniers is wrong and unhelpful. Not all, for sure. But, as you say, > [@TroutMan](#): > > this attitude is dangerous and allows the fascists to flourish. They are not all fascists, but they are all helping the fascists to flourish. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557/180 "2022-02-01T18:25:20Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Arguing that it’s all about making sure kids don’t learn about the Holocaust or see parallels to what’s happening today - that’s an extreme boogeyman. There are certainly some parents who are this extreme, but the majority of these parents aren’t actual fascists. Yeah, I agree. And we REALLY overuse the term “fascists” here. trump et al are Cultural Populists. =That doesn’t sound as bad, but in reality, it is worse. Boris, Bolsonaro, Putin, etc. [https://institute.global/policy/populists-power-perils-and-prospects-2021](https://institute.global/policy/populists-power-perils-and-prospects-2021) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maus-by-art-spiegelman-banned-by-mcminn-county-tn-school-board/958557.md?page=10)