# May 1, NC Teachers are Out! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111 "2019-04-05T23:13:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/21 "2019-04-06T22:46:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I did. No problem. Douchebaggery like this needs to be fought and kudos to those who stand up to fight. Gotcha, and thanks for the clarification–and for the support! ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/22 "2019-04-07T01:33:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Aside: One of the kids I grew up with is now a Democrat in the NC house. Kind of funny to think of him on the front lines of the fight for democracy. > > If you see him, ask him if he remembers getting his braces stuck together with his girlfriend’s when they kissed that one time. Would that be [Graig Meyer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graig_R._Meyer)? He represents the district I live in, and I’m very pleased he does. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/23 "2019-04-07T02:08:13Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > May 1 is a day resonant in the history of the international workers’ movement. It commemorates the 1886 Haymarket demonstration of Chicago in which several workers ultimately gave their lives for the cause of the 8-hour workday. So few people have any idea how much blood was shed, how many years of freedom lost for workplace rights, privileges, and protections that we take for granted today. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/24 "2019-04-07T02:12:15Z")
It would, indeed. I guess you just knew that he grew up in Cleveland? (I’m guessing the story about the braces isn’t in his official biography) ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/25 "2019-04-07T02:15:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It would, indeed. I guess you just knew that he grew up in Cleveland? > > (I’m guessing the story about the braces isn’t in his official biography) I grew up in Cleveland too. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/26 "2019-04-07T04:24:09Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > I grew up in Cleveland too. Same here, but I got sent to Catholic schools, so I missed out on the general population’s doings. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/27 "2019-04-07T04:44:54Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Does an Assistant Janitor or Trainee Groundswoman really **earn** $15 / hr? > [@Quartz](#): > > There’s your answer. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Huh? It was your question. It’s your answer. > > Edit: do you mean, “There’s your answer [to my question]”? If so, you’re right, and I apologize for the confusion. The bolding of the word earn confused me. It seemed to imply that that those individuals may be **paid** 15/hour, they don’t necessarily \*\* earn\*\* that much. ETA go get 'em LHOD! ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/28 "2019-04-07T11:56:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. Restore bonus pay for teachers who obtain masters degrees or other advanced degrees. This is a poor and unjustified policy position ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/29 "2019-04-07T13:22:34Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > This is a poor and unjustified policy position Why? Having a master’s degree in one’s field deepens one’s understanding of that field. I could have taught high school calculus with a bachelor’s degree, but I didn’t really understand it the way I should have until I was working on my master’s. Had I been a high school math teacher, getting the master’s would have made me a better teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/30 "2019-04-07T13:40:11Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > This is a poor and unjustified policy position Finish your thought, please. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/31 "2019-04-07T13:57:01Z")
[Here’s a pretty good overview of the research](http://www.shankerinstitute.org/blog/research-and-policy-paying-teachers-advanced-degrees). I suspect that, had Ruken bothered to write a decent post, he(?) would have explained that there’s not great research showing that students taught by a teacher with an advanced degree complete standardized tests with more success than other students. Which is true. It also ignores several factors: 1. That research isn’t conclusive. 2. Delve into particulars, and there are some cases where advanced degrees do help students fill in the correct bubbles (e.g., high school math). 3. Success on standardized tests isn’t the point of education. We focus so much on them for the same reason the drunkard looks for his keys under the street light: not because that’s where he’ll likely find what he needs, but because that’s where he can see. It’s much harder to research the effects of graduate degrees on pedagogy when it comes to effects like student engagement, student creativity, long-term retention of knowledge, and positive citizenship traits. That doesn’t mean they’re not important, though, despite what the drunken-key-searchers would have you believe. 4. Removing another avenue for teachers to advance their careers, especially when that avenue is open in other states, makes it harder for North Carolina to recruit and retain passionate, dedicated teachers. 5. Removing this pay acts as a de facto pay cut for teachers, unless it’s accompanied by an across-the-board raise equivalent to the lost opportunity (spoiler: it ain’t). 6. As a general principle, we should err on the side of encouraging teachers to further their mastery of their profession; pay increase for advanced degrees is an extremely effective incentive. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/32 "2019-04-07T17:14:35Z")
I’ve lived in NC for 20 years and my husband is a teacher. For all the honking about raising teacher salaries that the governors and legislature have done for that entire time, you’d think we’d be ahead of where we are. And there are years when teachers got raises and the rest of state employees did not. But nope, NC teacher pay is still near the bottom of the list. As for the Medicaid expansion, while it is true it’s not directly a work issue for teachers, this is a good time for _anyone_ who cares about that to show support for it, as lately there seems to be a softening in the legislature toward it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/33 "2019-04-07T17:59:52Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > I’ve lived in NC for 20 years and my husband is a teacher. For all the honking about raising teacher salaries that the governors and legislature have done for that entire time, you’d think we’d be ahead of where we are. And there are years when teachers got raises and the rest of state employees did not. But nope, NC teacher pay is still near the bottom of the list. > > As for the Medicaid expansion, while it is true it’s not directly a work issue for teachers, this is a good time for _anyone_ who cares about that to show support for it, as lately there seems to be a softening in the legislature toward it. Yup. Awhile ago I made a spreadsheet comparing what I’d earned each year I started to what I would’ve earned if my starting salary schedule had been adjusted for inflation. Republican pay freezes, removals of steps in the schedule, and other shenanigans have cost me about $50,000 over the last nine years. And that’s not accounting for removal of longevity pay, removal of master’s pay (I have about 20 credits toward my master’s, but there’s no percentage toward completing it), or losses under National Board pay (which I have, but I didn’t account for that in my spreadsheet, figuring it was already complicated enough to do the inflation adjustments per year). It’s also not accounting for losses due to the crappification of our health insurance. Simply in inflation-adjusted salary, the NC GOP has cost me $50,000. I’m not impressed by all their trumpeting about the raises they’ve given me. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/34 "2019-04-07T22:27:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Here’s a pretty good overview of the research](http://www.shankerinstitute.org/blog/research-and-policy-paying-teachers-advanced-degrees). I suspect that, had Ruken bothered to write a decent post, he(?) would have explained that there’s not great research showing that students taught by a teacher with an advanced degree complete standardized tests with more success than other students. > > Which is true. > > It also ignores several factors: > > 1. That research isn’t conclusive. > 2. Delve into particulars, and there are some cases where advanced degrees do help students fill in the correct bubbles (e.g., high school math). > 3. Success on standardized tests isn’t the point of education. We focus so much on them for the same reason the drunkard looks for his keys under the street light: not because that’s where he’ll likely find what he needs, but because that’s where he can see. It’s much harder to research the effects of graduate degrees on pedagogy when it comes to effects like student engagement, student creativity, long-term retention of knowledge, and positive citizenship traits. That doesn’t mean they’re not important, though, despite what the drunken-key-searchers would have you believe. > 4. Removing another avenue for teachers to advance their careers, especially when that avenue is open in other states, makes it harder for North Carolina to recruit and retain passionate, dedicated teachers. > 5. Removing this pay acts as a de facto pay cut for teachers, unless it’s accompanied by an across-the-board raise equivalent to the lost opportunity (spoiler: it ain’t). > 6. As a general principle, we should err on the side of encouraging teachers to further their mastery of their profession; pay increase for advanced degrees is an extremely effective incentive. I’d say that the main trouble with rewarding advanced degrees with a separate column that equates to a promotion is that it rewards the wrong thing. As a starting teacher in South Carolina, I was moved right by the SCDoE simply for having a JD, despite the fact I was teaching mathematics. What SHOULD get someone a promotion is additional work that is focused on becoming a better teacher, which is not always true of getting a masters in one’s field, let alone getting a M.Ed. But certainly, if you’re going to remove that promotion possibility, you need to replace it with something that does reward becoming a better teacher. Otherwise, all you’re doing is saving money by removing incentives to become better. That’s not particularly smart. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/35 "2019-04-08T03:21:15Z")
3 is the big one. How did that get passed in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/36 "2019-04-08T13:05:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Here’s a pretty good overview of the research](http://www.shankerinstitute.org/blog/research-and-policy-paying-teachers-advanced-degrees). I suspect that, had Ruken bothered to write a decent post, he(?) would have explained that there’s not great research showing that students taught by a teacher with an advanced degree complete standardized tests with more success than other students. > > Which is true. > > It also ignores several factors: > > 1. That research isn’t conclusive. Maybe they could spend the money on something that is supported by the research, or even not spend the money at all. > [@](#): > > 1. Delve into particulars, and there are some cases where advanced degrees do help students fill in the correct bubbles (e.g., high school math). OK - then high school math teachers should get the perk. Not everyone - that isn’t cost-effective. > [@](#): > > 1. Success on standardized tests isn’t the point of education. We focus so much on them for the same reason the drunkard looks for his keys under the street light: not because that’s where he’ll likely find what he needs, but because that’s where he can see. It’s much harder to research the effects of graduate degrees on pedagogy when it comes to effects like student engagement, student creativity, long-term retention of knowledge, and positive citizenship traits. That doesn’t mean they’re not important, though, despite what the drunken-key-searchers would have you believe. This is a restatement of the same issue - there is no good evidence that advanced degrees increase student engagement, long-term retention of knowledge, or good citizenship. So maybe we shouldn’t be spending money on things that we don’t know work. > [@](#): > > 1. Removing this pay acts as a de facto pay cut for teachers, unless it’s accompanied by an across-the-board raise equivalent to the lost opportunity (spoiler: it ain’t). Maybe it needs a high school teacher with an advanced degree to explain that removing a pay raise isn’t a cut. > [@](#): > > 1. As a general principle, we should err on the side of encouraging teachers to further their mastery of their profession; pay increase for advanced degrees is an extremely effective incentive. This, again, is a restatement of the same problem. There is no good evidence that advanced degrees represent mastery of teaching. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/37 "2019-04-08T14:21:53Z")
That’s a pretty extreme parody, but yeah, that’s the sort of silly arguments we’re up against. Thanks for the illustration, Shodan, although some subtlety in your satire would be appreciated :). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/38 "2019-04-08T15:02:58Z")
It wasn’t satire, and I am sure you recognize that. But “there is no reason to believe that giving us more money will let us do a better job so give it to us anyway” isn’t the silly argument. I get that you want more money. Everybody does. But you have to make the case for it. IMO. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/39 "2019-04-08T15:21:07Z")
Parts of it read like satire. I mean “Maybe it needs a high school teacher with an advanced degree to explain that removing a pay raise isn’t a cut.”? They remove bonus pay for having an advanced degree and you are perplexed as to how that could be described as a cut in pay? That can’t be serious. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/40 "2019-04-08T15:29:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But “there is no reason to believe that giving us more money will let us do a better job so give it to us anyway” isn’t the silly argument. I’m assuming you mean this as well, although it’s both incorrect and a straw man, so there’s not much point in addressing it. If you can’t be arsed to summarize your opponent’s arguments fairly, I can’t be arsed to care about your summaries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111.md?page=3)