# May 1, NC Teachers are Out! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111 "2019-04-05T23:13:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/81 "2019-05-01T19:03:29Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I live in NC and that’s bad about not paying tuition. I wonder why some people stay in teaching so long, it’s not for the money. I have met some former teachers who left for other jobs and they make more money. I assume most people going back for MS degree go to a state school but even then tuition is not cheap now. I can’t see them going to Duke with their sky high tuition. It’s DEFINITELY not for the money. I was a classroom teacher for 26 years and an adjunct instructor at a couple of colleges before that. I could definitely have made a lot more in other fields. I stayed because I loved teaching and loved the subject matter (I taught HS.) I loved kids. I looked forward to going to work every day. (Well, except for inservice days.) Life is short, and I didn’t want to spend it at a job that had me wishing the week away. I never got a Masters. I couldn’t afford it. A friend of mine spent $20,000 on getting a Masters, believing it would pay off in the long run in increased salary. But our salaries were frozen for 10 years, so her investment didn’t pay off. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/82 "2019-05-01T19:42:15Z")
Maybe North Carolina is different than Kansas but here teachers negotiate with individual districts not the state. Each district sets its own policy on wages and benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/83 "2019-05-01T19:56:34Z")
Apologies if I missed this. Can you point me to the national standards on numbers of counselors, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/84 "2019-05-01T20:49:35Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Maybe North Carolina is different than Kansas but here teachers negotiate with individual districts not the state. Each district sets its own policy on wages and benefits. The districts’ funding in Kansas comes from the state. The state doesn’t determine what each district’s salary schedule is; the district does, which is why teachers negotiate with the district. However, state funding obviously determines what districts are able to offer. Retirement benefits are handled at the state level because a state retirement system encompasses a larger number of workers and is therefore more feasible economically. In Kansas, it’s the state’s Public Employees Retirement System, so it covers all sorts of public employees. Insurance benefits are established by each district, and each district’s school board determines which insurer the district will use. State policies can affect insurance options are available, though. And of course, state policies affect the health insurance options for families whose children are enrolled in district schools and therefore impact the health of those children. I hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/85 "2019-05-01T20:50:13Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Maybe North Carolina is different than Kansas but here teachers negotiate with individual districts not the state. Each district sets its own policy on wages and benefits. Three differences at least: 1. “A sound basic education” is a guaranteed right in our state constitution, and there’s a series of court cases (the Leandro series, if you want to read up on them) that require the state to fulfill its constitutional responsibilities. 2. Due to Leandro and other factors in our state, most education funding is at the state level. Most districts supplement the inadequate state compensation, but it’s uneven. Asheville, for example, has the highest (or tied for the highest) cost of living of anywhere in the state, but our supplement is about half that of comparable districts like Raleigh or Charlotte. That said, again, most funding is on the state level. 3. “Negotiate” is another weird part of our state. Public employees who attempt to engage in collective bargaining, or who attempt to strike, are committing a misdemeanor of the same severity as assault with a deadly weapon and face up to six months in jail or a $10,000 fine. (I think I’m remembering these numbers correctly–I haven’t looked them up in a year, and I have spotty Internet right now). So, no, we don’t negotiate with districts on wages and benefits, first because those are mostly set at the state level, and secondly because we don’t want to go to jail. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Apologies if I missed this. Can you point me to the national standards on numbers of counselors, etc.? I don’t have those at my fingertips, but I’ll grab a couple. [The American School Counselor Association](https://www.schoolcounselor.org/asca/media/asca/Publications/ratioreport.pdf) recommends one counselor per 250 students. The [National Association of Social Workers](https://www.socialworkers.org/News/News-Releases/ID/1633/NASW-Highlights-the-Growing-Need-for-School-Social-Workers-to-Prevent-School-Violence) recommends 1 social worker per 250 kids under normal circumstances, or 1 per 50 kids in high-needs situations. I found these by Googling “recommended ratio of \* to students”. I’m on the bus back from the rally. What a day! [Here’s our local TV station’s article about the event](https://wlos.com/news/local/teachers-from-across-western-north-carolina-attend-education-rally-in-raleigh). If you watch the video, please pay no attention to the dork in the green shirt bobbing up and down like an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/86 "2019-05-01T22:55:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. Restore bonus pay for teachers who obtain masters degrees or other advanced degrees. I am going to disagree with demand #2. I had in-laws who were elementary school teachers who worked for higher degrees explicitly because it meant higher pay. That was it. Getting a higher degree is all well and fine but evidence suggests teachers with one do not improve student achievement: > [@](#): > > ``` > Although people generally agree that teacher quality affects student achievement, there is much less agreement on how to measure teacher quality. Given the long held belief that more education produces better teachers, many American school districts pay teachers with master's degrees substantially more, even though a number of studies - including this one -- suggest that having a master's degree has little if any effect on student achievement. > > ``` > > \ > > Teachers who entered teaching with a master’s degree, or who earned it within five years of beginning to teach, were as effective as teachers without a master’s degree. Teachers who earned a master’s degree more than five years after they started teaching were less effective than those without master’s degrees. > > As in previous studies, the authors find here that teachers with more experience are better teachers. > > SOURCE: [Teacher Credentials Don't Matter for Student Achievement](https://www.nber.org/digest/aug07/w12828.html) In lieu of a pay increase for getting a graduate degree I’d rather see pay increases early on in a teacher’s career to help with teacher retention since, it seems, teacher experience is the key to better student results and it is especially notable in a teacher’s early years on the job. So, giving incentive to new teachers to stick it out is a better use of taxpayer money than paying more for an advanced degree that doesn’t really help (it may help in high school where teachers need more specialized and advanced knowledge…not sure about that). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/87 "2019-05-02T00:32:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. “Negotiate” is another weird part of our state. Public employees who attempt to engage in collective bargaining, or who attempt to strike, are committing a misdemeanor of the same severity as assault with a deadly weapon and face up to six months in jail or a $10,000 fine. (I think I’m remembering these numbers correctly–I haven’t looked them up in a year, and I have spotty Internet right now). Holy crap, that’s a criminal offense? Is your state an outlier in that aspect or is that normal across the nation? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/88 "2019-05-02T00:36:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am going to disagree with demand #2. I mean, cool, but: 1. Pretty much everything you said, Ruken already said, and I already responded to it. Did you read that exchange? 2. The GOP, in an effort to undermine the rally, announced a budget yesterday that met a couple of our demands in a way. The one they met most fully was the one about restoring master’s pay. That seems to be the least controversial of the demands, from their point of view. They’re still unwilling to expand Medicaid, which should be a total no-brainer if you’re not being petulant about Obama; they’re offering a 4.8% average raise for teachers and only 1% for support staff, which completely misses the point; and they’re not addressing the other demands at all, as near as I can tell. Honestly, if I got to compromise on any of these demands, it’d be the master’s pay, even though that’s the one that affects me most closely; I already have 18 graduate credits in education and could probably craft a degree in my area of expertise (elementary education with an emphasis on academically/intellectually gifted children) pretty easily, and see a 12% raise for doing so. But I’d gladly give that up if it meant we got the social workers we needed. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/89 "2019-05-02T00:42:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Holy crap, that’s a criminal offense? Is your state an outlier in that aspect or is that normal across the nation? Remember Ronald Reagan fired all air traffic controllers in the US for striking. He said the strike was illegal and ordered them back to their jobs. When they refused he fired the lot of them and banned them from ever being re-hired as an air traffic controller for life. I know there are some protections to allow collective bargaining but clearly it does not cover everyone and protections for such things have only waned over the years. I have no idea if this restriction on teachers would hold up in court. I suspect it is legally complicated and again, given the strong tilt against unions over the last few decades, I am not sure I would want to toll those dice as a teacher there. (Although I doubt they’d throw the lot of them into jail for trying…they probably go after the organizers only I would think.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/90 "2019-05-02T00:48:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Holy crap, that’s a criminal offense? Is your state an outlier in that aspect or is that normal across the nation? [Here’s the law](https://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByArticle/Chapter_95/Article_12.pdf). Class 1 misdemeanor. Class 1 misdemeanors are the [second-most serious misdemeanors](https://www.halecriminallaw.com/Criminal-Law/Misdemeanors-Explained.shtml), equivalent to > [@](#): > > possession of drug paraphernalia, larceny, possession of stolen goods, damaging real or personal property, communicating threats and prostitution. These laws went into place during the Jim Crow era. I’ve heard people say they were set in place to prevent poor white and black people from allying with one another, as the public sectors was the place where folks most commonly worked alongside different races. I don’t know the evidence behind that claim. [There’s a movement to restore bargaining rights to public workers](https://pulse.ncpolicywatch.org/2019/04/24/nc-lawmakers-advocates-launch-new-effort-to-allow-collective-bargaining-by-public-employees/), but as long as we have a Republican legislature I don’t see that going anywhere. As I understand it, [collective bargaining is only illegal for teachers in five states](http://cepr.net/documents/state-public-cb-2014-03.pdf): > [@](#): > > Georgia > North Carolina > South Carolina > Texas > Virginia There’s some weird geographic pattern going on there, lemme see if I can put my finger on it… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/91 "2019-05-02T00:53:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I mean, cool, but: > > 1. Pretty much everything you said, Ruken already said, and I already responded to it. Did you read that exchange? You mean the part where you complain Ruken did not write a complete post? I think I wrote more than he did. And I had not seen it but reviewing it I would submit that while you can wiggle and dance around the studies so far they all seem to show an advanced degree is not of much use in most cases. Yes, there may be some cases where it is useful which I stipulated to above (e.g. specialized knowledge needed for a high school class). If it works there then sure! By all means pay extra for it. To me it is like asking whether McDonalds should pay more for a fry cook who has a masters degree (of course they shouldn’t as it is of no use as a fry cook). I am NOT likening teachers to fry cooks, merely making an example that shows paying more for something that seems to have little to no benefit is silly. I do, however, support teachers and think they should be payed well. Which is why I mentioned that maybe they should come up with a scheme to boost new teacher pay a bit faster at the outset since experience seems to count for a lot and teacher retention is a problem. So get them to a comfortable wage faster. I have NO idea how such a scheme would be crafted but I am sure someone could figure something out. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/92 "2019-05-02T00:56:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Possibly related, this morning I got a message through a teacher job-hunting site I recently joined desperately searching for teachers in South Carolina. Seems more than tangentially related. From [Payday Report](http://paydayreport.com/as-south-carolina-teachers-walkout-10000-storm-state-capitol-in-columbia/): > [@](#): > > Conditions are so bad that over 5,300 teachers in South Carolina quit last year. As a result of the poor working conditions, more than 600 teaching positions went unfilled; leading to larger classroom sizes for the existing teachers in the systems. They also said over 10,000 people, twice as many as organizers were expecting, showed up at the state capitol in Columbia in support of the teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/93 "2019-05-02T00:57:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Remember Ronald Reagan fired all air traffic controllers in the US for striking. He said the strike was illegal and ordered them back to their jobs. When they refused he fired the lot of them and banned them from ever being re-hired as an air traffic controller for life. > > I know there are some protections to allow collective bargaining but clearly it does not cover everyone and protections for such things have only waned over the years. > > I have no idea if this restriction on teachers would hold up in court. I suspect it is legally complicated and again, given the strong tilt against unions over the last few decades, I am not sure I would want to toll those dice as a teacher there. (Although I doubt they’d throw the lot of them into jail for trying…they probably go after the organizers only I would think.) Sure, I can understand but not agree with “firing”. But criminal charges? For trying to get better pay? I can’t believe that’s a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/94 "2019-05-02T01:01:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure, I can understand but not agree with “firing”. But criminal charges? For trying to get better pay? I can’t believe that’s a thing. So I realized I made a mistake in my previous post. It is only striking that is a criminal offense. Collective-bargaining is just considered null and void. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/95 "2019-05-02T01:08:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure, I can understand but not agree with “firing”. But criminal charges? For trying to get better pay? I can’t believe that’s a thing. Well, it is [illegal to strike](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/7311) if you are a federal government employee. I cannot find what the penalties for doing so are though. If the feds can do it I suppose the states can do it too. I have a vague memory that the ATC folk could have been arrested for striking but there were like 10,000 of them so they instead fined the organizers. Throwing 10,000 ATC people in jail would seem a bit harsh and not go down well politically. I suspect the same would be true for teachers in these states. Jailing them would look really bad so they’d target the organizers. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/96 "2019-05-02T01:17:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So I realized I made a mistake in my previous post. It is only striking that is a criminal offense. Collective-bargaining is just considered null and void. That’s still weird to me. If, one day, you said “I’m on strike!” and started walking around your school with a sign, they could arrest you and you’d face criminal charges? If that’s the case, that’s horrible. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/97 "2019-05-02T14:48:08Z")
That kind of laws are the reason “Japanese strikes” became so popular in Spain during the 1960s and '70s, when striking was illegal: in a Japanese strike what you do is follow the letter of every law, requirement, rule, regulation… You’re doing your job, and in fact you’re doing it exactly as ordered, so what they gonna do? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/98 "2019-05-02T14:59:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That kind of laws are the reason “Japanese strikes” became so popular in Spain during the 1960s and '70s, when striking was illegal: in a Japanese strike what you do is follow the letter of every law, requirement, rule, regulation… > > You’re doing your job, and in fact you’re doing it exactly as ordered, so what they gonna do? Rule Book Slowdown > **[Slowdown | Rule-book slowdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowdown#Rule-book_slowdown)** > > Another form of slowdown is known as the rule-book slowdown. This refers to the "rule books" that govern workers' actions, usually either for safety or quality purposes. In practice, many rules are loosely interpreted in the interest of efficiency. A union seeking to employ a slowdown tactic may take advantage of these common rule oversights by having workers "work to rule", obeying each and every rule to the fullest extent, which consequently will greatly reduce productivity. > This has the adva... ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/99 "2019-05-02T18:36:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s still weird to me. If, one day, you said “I’m on strike!” and started walking around your school with a sign, they could arrest you and you’d face criminal charges? If that’s the case, that’s horrible. Apparently not if it was just you - the law refers to a combination of persons. And while I’m not going to say I agree with the idea of jailing public employees simply for striking , I do want to point that it’s possible for people to be jailed for reasons related to a public employees strike, even in union-friendly states. For example, I can’t think of one public employee strike in NYC where a union official didn’t end up in jail for a few days for defying a court order to send his members back to work. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111/100 "2019-05-02T20:41:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am going to disagree with demand #2. > > I had in-laws who were elementary school teachers who worked for higher degrees explicitly because it meant higher pay. That was it. > > Getting a higher degree is all well and fine but evidence suggests teachers with one do not improve student achievement: > > . I agree. Years ago I was helping my wife earn her masters and the classes and projects were pretty lame. In fact years ago when I took Masters level education courses they were WAY easier than the ones for undergrad. Now dont get me wrong. Nothing wrong with a class for say an elementary teacher to learn how to say incorporate music into math or a class on how to reach minority students but most were not like that and the masters thesis and project! Its about how they did some project and wrote a research paper on it. Very little to do with anything they teach. Worse though, many districts around here require teachers to gain their masters within 5 years. This has created many “diploma mills” where schools (not for profits but even regular universities do this) have these programs to where a teacher can gain a masters in say 2 years by just attending class once a week or just being online. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-1-nc-teachers-are-out/832111.md?page=6)