May 5, 1945 - we shall remember.

Ten days ago I was flying out of France when my sixteen year old granddaughter gripped my arm and pointed out the window. Beneath us were the beaches of Normandy. We just held on to each other and were silent. I was glad to know that she knew its significance.

Two days later the World War II Memorial opened on the mall in Washington. I called my 80 year old brother-in-law to offer my thanks. He was in Belgium during that terrible winter of the Battle of the Bulge. He doesn’t feel at ease with sentiment and he made me laugh when he said, “The pleasure was all mine.”

I am always in awe of the heroes that have surrounded me all of my life.

… So, once again, thank you Coldfire - and a heartfelt “Thank You” to all those, whether still alive or no longer with us, that helped Liberation Day happen 59 years ago. And “Thank you”, too, to all those who made the dark years before that day survivable for even one more human being than wouldn’t otherwise have made it.

Dani

How to put this? I’ll try, and trust me when I say I mean no offense whatsoever. Here goes: if anything, this thread was partially meant as a manifest against patriotism. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t wish ill will on your friend, or for any soldier fighting for his nation today. But IMHO, it was patriotism that was at the root of WWII as well. Being overly patriotic can lead some people to be less critical. I’ve never really understood it - taking pride in the place where one is born. It’s chance. Yeah, I was lucky to be born in a rich and safe country. But pride, I’ll take in achievements of my own, not circumstance. I might fight for this country if it were once again under attack, but I would not want to be part of the Dutch troops currently in Iraq, part of what I consider to be an illegal war. Without wanting to debate that issue here, I guess my point is that patriotism scares me more than it reassures me.

War is a terrible thing, but it can be necessary at times. History is usually a good judge when it comes to determining whether or not a war was started out of necessity, or something else. Where the balance lies with the Iraq war, time will tell, but until then I can’t in good faith compare the US or Dutch troops currently in Iraq with the liberators of the 1940’s. I desperately hope that they all arrive home in safety and good health, and I do not blame them for carrying out the mandate bestowed upon them. But to me, they’re not liberators.

Sorry for getting on my soapbox there, folks.

On Tuesday, I made a mental note to resurrect this thread if no one else did. Yesterday, I was laid low by a stomach bug which has, hopefully, passed. Sorry I’m late to the commemoration.

I won’t retell my story – it’s elsewhere in this thread. I’ll just pause to honor those who served.

CJ

Coldfire, I saw a show the other day about men from an American unit, one of whom was buried in The Netherlands. Every grave got adopted by a local person and when the woman who adopted this one fellow’s grave moved over here her brother took over. He’s in his 70s and when he can no longer do it other members of his family will continue to visit and lay flowers on the grave.

And this is sixty years later. This gratitude makes me cry.

It’s almost May 5, and almost time to resurrect Coldfire’s magnificent thread. I’d like to do the honours this year. I know it’s two days early, but I will be travelling this week and won’t have a chance to write this later, and this year is particularly important to me.

Last week my other grandfather - not the one on Page 2 or 3 of this thread, but my maternal grandfather - died after a battle with cancer. He was 85 years old. We buried him Monday, and I gave the eulogy. (this post isn’t the eulogy I gave.) That the sixtieth anniversary of the war was almost upon us was not lost upon me.

My Grandpa had a horrible childhood. His parents married too young and divorced, a rarity for Catholics back then, and he was shuffled from house to house, relative to relative. He lived in maybe five entirely difference provinces or states before he turned 18. He was apprenticed to a tool and die maker but after a year or so of war decided he’d rather fight Germans, and so he went off and joined the RCAF.

He was trained as a pilot, commissioned as an officer. Shortly afterwards he met a young lady who would become his wife, my grandmother, and they married in August 1943. Four weeks after they married, he was sent to Europe to fight, not to return for 18 months.

He was assigned to 427 Squadron, the Lions, a squadron of Halifax heavy bombers based out of Leeming (by the time he arrived, anyway; previously they’d flown Wellingtons) as a bombardier (which in a Halifax also meant you were the co pilot.) The squadron was one of the most travelled and successful in Bomber Command, flying innumerable sorties. They were presented with a lion cub by Churchill himself, and given a bronze lion statue by MGM.

Here is his crew; my Grandpa is back row, on the very left.
http://www.rcaf.com/6group/427crewpics/pages/427SQDNcrew44.htm

My Grandpa’s crew spent some time training, itself a dangerous profession. On one occasion they went out on a navigation exercise and somehow lost their way and ended up in Ireland. Fortunately the Irish decided not to intern them.

His crew ended up flying 36 combat missions throughout Europe. They bombed German cities, rail yards, and laid mines in the North Sea and in front of German ports. They were shot, flakked, and once collided with a German fighter; they lost parts of their tail, wings, engines shot out, the fuselaged holed. And yet not one of the seven men inthe crew was ever so much as nicked by a peice of flak, not one bruise, not one scratch. Since one in three Canadian airmen in Bomber Command were killed, wounded or captured, that is something of a miracle.

Grandpa told me that there were a few missions, dropping incendiaries, when the heat from the fires would be such that he would be sweating buckets in his flight jacket. Once a friend’s plane returned seemingly intact, but he saw that a cannon shell had penetrated the rear turret and blown his friend up, and he had to be washed from the turret with a hose and buckets. Once a German fighter was right under their nose, and he shot a long burst into the cockpit, and he could see the inside of the cockpit exploding in blood and metal, and the plane spiralled to the earth.

On another occasion their bomb bay refused to release the mines inside it. You couldn’t land with bombs in the bay, so they circled while Grandpa and the flight engineer crawled into the open bay and released the mines with hammers and wrenches. It took twenty or thirty hair-raising minutes. Upon returning they found that the rest of the squadron, which had gone home without them, had been set upon by German fighters and suffered heavy losses.

In a morbid twist, any crew that used a plane after they’d been done with it was lost - they soon became known as the “Jinx Crew.” In an equally bizarre twist, he was at 85 years old the first of the entire crew to die. What’re the odds of seven men living to be that old?

After the war Grandpa served the air force for 23 years in a variety of mechanical jobs. It only took three or four years for the really bad nightmares and shakes to go away. He retired from that and worked for the province, and retired from that, and spent 22 years of retirement puttering around his hobbies - computers, radios, and things of that nature. The computer I am typing this on was built by his hand. He raised a daughter, who he loved more than anything in the world, and helped to raise his two grandchildren.

There was nothing superhuman or amazing about my grandfather. He was a quiet, dignified, working class man. He was very, very smart, but shy, and really only opened up with us - my Grandma, my parents, me and my sister, and eventually my wife, who he treated as a granddaughter. He never really got much into the whole Legion thing - he was a member, but not enthusiastically, and never did Remembrance Day stuff. He mostly liked to be at home with his family and his gadgets, and to fall asleep in front of his one of his many TVs.

He was, in short, an ordinary guy. A very good man, a man who loved his family,but an ordinary guy all the same.

But… he was an ordinary guy who, just because it had to be done, left his wife and his country behind to go to the other side of the world and fight what were, literally, the forces of evil. An ordinary guy who got into a “plane” that, to me, looks like the crate you might ship a real plane in, that rattled and lumbered across a sky of unending terror and danger in the face of a determined foe. Thirty six times. How could he do that? I guess it’s possible because millions did. But he did it, and we cannot eb grateful enough.

And then he went back to Canada, and led his quiet life, and died. There was no tragedy in this; what else could you ask of a life? He outlived most men, had a loving family, raised himself up from absolutely nothing, with no education and no support, to make his own money and live a comfortable lifestyle and want for nothing. He saw Europe (not just from when he was dropping bombs on it - they lived in Germany, of all places, on assignment with NATO, and there made fast friends among those who had once been their enemies) and all of Canada and the USA. He died surrounded by his family, and sick as he was it was time. An ordinary but happy life. But make no mistake about it; for that service long ago, he was a hero.

How many others are there? Even as we lose them, quite a few are still around, old men now, shuffling about the twilight of their ordinary lives, some parts good and bad, you see them all over. And like my Grandpa long ago they demonstrated a bravery and endured suffering and horrors I couldn’t even begin to imagine, not to cleanse their ethnics rivals or to grab loot or for conquest of one sort or another, but as players in the greatest crusade ever fought to free other human beings. The magnitude of what these ordinary men did cannot possibly be overstated, and my Grandpa was one of them.

At this point, I have to stop typing, because I can barely see the screen.

Thank you, RickJay. Thank you ** F/O C. Laing**

I’ll thank the rest of you guys tomorrow.

:`)

I had hoped to have the honor of resurrecting the thread this year, but RickJay deserved to do it this time. Rick – I know your grandfather was old and no longer healthy, still I am sorry for your loss.

May 5[sup]th[/sup] is even more special to me this year, because this year it coincides with Holocaust Memorial Day (as observed in Israel.)

So once again (one can never say this too many times) we must thank all the veterans who made victory not only necessary but possible; who assured that Europe could once again become free; and who helped save at least some of those who would otherwise have been the victims of the Nazi murder machine.

Thank you!

Dani

RickJay, that was beautiful. Your grandpa done good. You can be very proud of him, and next time you talk/pray to him, let him know I thank him for what he did.

Of course they could have saved a whole lot more if their political and military leaders had cared enough to bomb the camps and the railway lines to the camps. Diversion of resources to this was blocked.

Harris in so many ways seems more a first than a second world war figure to me. Attrition, attrition, attrition.

I’d like to add my respect to those who died. In the modern spirit of reconciliation I’d like also to mention the Russian and German, especially German civilian casualties of WW2.

War is obscene. There are very few just wars. Even WW2 which arguably was one of them was avoidable and deplorable.

I love Canada for many reasons…not the least of which is that the Canadians were the kind of brave who hit the beaches of Normandy on bicycles. BICYCLES, fercrissake.

I have a dear old friend of 83 who was an ensign aboard some kinda warship bombarding the beaches on D-Day. They finally used up all their ammo and had to steam to the rear for more. But there wasn’t any more.

I have another friend who was the first Fighting Correspondent in the Marine Corps. He landed at Guadalcanal with an M-1 and a 40lb wire recorder on his back. Those recordings got played on radio all over the world. This guy is turning 90 in a few weeks and still in there scrapping.

Al * | and Alvin <<<| …bless you.

What reasons have you read for the decision to block resources being spent on bombing the extermination camps and the railway lines leading to them? At what stage of the war (ie what year and what month), according to your belief, did the leaders become aware of the true purpose of the extermination camps and their locations.

Agreed. A blight on Churchill’s war record. And yet, compared to Roosevelt (and of course Stalin), Churchill consistently cared about casualties, especially deaths and injuries to Allied forces. It was in part down to him that the Second Front was delayed until 1944.

…plus sixty years. Sixty years…

The youngest soldiers that participated are men of 77, 78…
The officers are in their 80s and 90s.
The generals, ministers, presidents, monarchs… gone.

Those of us who were able to know any of them had better tell others about them, too. RickJay, F/O Laing’s perhaps greatest victory was returning to lead that truly Good Life you relate. Defeating the hatred, the anger, the fear, the pain, to enjoy the prize that he won for himself and for all: being able to live our lives minding our own business and doing that which brings us fulfillment. Thanks for this post in revival of the thread, and our respects and honor in the person of your grandfather to all those who “stood on guard”.

Today I will cast my vote in our General Election.

On my way home from work this evening, as I travel to the polling station in our village, I will pass by the American Military Cemetery at Madingley.

As I place my simple cross on the ballot paper I will remember 3,000 crosses standing silently on the hill outside my village; and as I look down the list of candidates’ names, I will remember 5,000 names inscribed on the Wall of the Missing.

Sixty years ago friends from a foreign land fought and died so that I can go home tonight and vote freely.

Thank you.

Noone Special, Have a good and thoughtful Holocaust Memorial Day. I’ll be thinking of all the Jewish people who were murdered in WWII.

Beware of Doug, heh :slight_smile: Yes, bicycles indeed.

Thank you **Al and Alvin **

As JRDelirious said: Most of the men are gone.
To you and to all having friends or relatives still living: Try to capture their stories.
They are important and should be recorded forever.

THANK YOU ALL
For my freedom.

If I may, a poem by Erin Noteboom:

Winter White
(Ardennes - January, 1945 )

Midafternoon in some nameless town
a door bangs, a woman comes running,
arms full of folded white. One sheet
flies out behind her like a banner, and
they understand. She’s giving them linens,
winter camouflage. With no language,
he thanks her, and she presses to him,
weeping. When she runs he lifts
his hands and finds
a table cloth. Not lace,
but that stiff stuff,
cutwork. He cuts it
with his bayonet.
Pulls it over his head. Inside,
he smells the starch,
the ghost of iron.

More info on May 4 & 5 in the Netherlands:
http://www.holland.com/oorlogssporen/gb/index.html?page=http://www.holland.com/oorlogssporen/gb/activ60jaar_2.html

Anti-semitism. Pure and simple. A senior UK official annotated one of the pleas by Jewish groups at the time with a comment about whining Jews, before rejecting it ISTR.

If anybody important had cared about the fate of the victims, there is no doubt that lives could have been saved. Not a sentiment one hears aired often enough in my opinion.

(On a related note, your anti-Scottish comments (in a couple of threads now) are grating on me a little. If you were trying to be funny, consider the joke made.)

During the course of 1942. Anybody with access to the western press who was interested would have known by then exactly what was going on.

In Britain and the USA every bit as much as in Germany, the majority made it their business not to know. At least the Germans had the excuse of the Gestapo. Here IMO it was just good old-fashioned anti-semitism.

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/questions/#20

Why are you hijacking this thread with your irrelevant ranting? Start another one if you want to bitch about this entirely different topic.

I agree that politics should be kept out of this thread. As I said near the beginning, this thread is a memorial; and it should be treated as such.

?

So the motivations for the Holcaust are not relevant to thread about WW2?

Why don’t you add something substantive here, or else ignore what I posted?

As noted previously, this thread is not about WWII as a whole. It is a remembrance by one man of those who helped liberate his country. It is a memoral, where others have posted to share their own remembrances. As such, it is ‘hallowed ground’. There are other places to debate the war.