# May a private club exclude blacks? What if a state law said it could? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752 "2007-06-04T20:40:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/1 "2007-06-04T20:40:34Z")
And would it make a difference if the exclusion was specifically written down as club policy, or just an “unwritten rule” that was invariably followed? Assume the club is in Ohio. Legal citations welcomed. And no, this is not about a case now before my court. ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/2 "2007-06-04T20:48:27Z")
Is this a debate or a question? If the latter I can’t answer, if the former then of course it ought to be allowed to. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/3 "2007-06-04T20:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] And would it make a difference if the exclusion was specifically written down as club policy, or just an “unwritten rule” that was invariably followed? Assume the club is in Ohio. Legal citations welcomed. And no, this is not about a case now before my court. [/QUOTE] I could be totally wrong, but it was my understanding private clubs _could_ pretty much exclude anyone, as long as they were truly private clubs. Augusta National (the golf club where the Masters is hosted) has never had a female member. It also doesn’t have an application process, it’s purely by invitation only. This was criticized by NOW a few years ago, but nothing ever came of it. While there are no female members, females can golf there if they are guests of a member. In the South there’s the old tradition of the “cotillion” or debutante ball. They are frequently sponsored by some local society, and many of these societies have very restrictive membership rules, for example no Catholics, no Jews, no blacks, et cetera, and to my knowledge these sort of societies are still in existence and still sponsor cotillions. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/4 "2007-06-04T20:55:54Z")
I believe in the right to free association. Of course, I also believe you have to live with the results of that, and one of those results might be bad publicity. Context matters here as well. The exclusive golf club that bars blacks is a far worse case than the ethnic social club that does, especially since those social clubs have their own counterparts in the black community. Many people will give a mental pass to the latter while condemning the former. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/5 "2007-06-04T21:02:10Z")
The Elks club excludes atheists. We have two book clubs in town that exclude men. Mensa excludes people who can’t pass an intelligence test. The ABA excludes people who can’t pass a bar exam. I’m a member of an organization that excludes people who haven’t published at least one children’s book. I think the NAACP excludes whites. If we’re going to be consistent, then yes, excluding blacks is okay. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/6 "2007-06-04T21:03:54Z")
Banning blacks at some country clubs is also questionable legally I think. I think in some cases it’s been challenged in court and of course every state has different laws. I think the way a lot of organizations get away with being so selective is, how can you mandate that an organization that doesn’t _have_ an applications process accept someone? There’s a lot of “secret” (very tongue-in-cheek use of the term) societies in the South that sponsor some of the aforementioned Cotillions, it’d be very hard to force them to accept anyone because they have no real “acceptance” or “application” process. If a member invites you, you’re considered for membership, otherwise, you’re not even considered. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/7 "2007-06-04T21:04:07Z")
Well, I mean, women can’t join the Masons and such and that seems to be perfectly legal. I thought as long as you’re private you can make any rules you want to. (Technically, a Mason can’t be deformed, either, although in practice I understand that’s no longer the case.) Black men may now be non-Prince Hall Masons in the South, although generally they don’t care to - but that’s a decision made as far as I know by individual Grand Lodges, not by law. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/8 "2007-06-04T21:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] The Elks club excludes atheists. We have two book clubs in town that exclude men. Mensa excludes people who can’t pass an intelligence test. The ABA excludes people who can’t pass a bar exam. I’m a member of an organization that excludes people who haven’t published at least one children’s book. I think the NAACP excludes whites. If we’re going to be consistent, then yes, excluding blacks is okay. [/QUOTE] And groups like Daughters of the American Revolution, The Society of Cincinnati, United Daughters of the Confederacy and et cetera only accept people of certain lineages. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/9 "2007-06-04T21:09:00Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] I think the NAACP excludes whites. [/qUOTE] Don’t think so. Here’s the Internet membership application form: [https://www.naacp.org/contribute/join.php](https://www.naacp.org/contribute/join.php) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/10 "2007-06-04T21:13:35Z")
A public accommodation cannot discriminate, but a private club can. Sometimes the line between those two gets blurry, and if a country club is given access to public lands, it might fall under that category. Also, discrimination by race is held to a higher level of judicial scrutiny (in fact, the highest level) while gender discrimination is held to an intermediate level of scrutiny. So, there might be places where it’s OK to discriminate by gender, but not by race. However, if a state wanted to make it illegal for private clubs to discriminate, I think they could do so. (Not sure, but I think they could.) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/11 "2007-06-04T21:13:57Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] I think the NAACP excludes whites. If we’re going to be consistent, then yes, excluding blacks is okay. [/QUOTE] You might want to research a little before you post something like this. The NAACP has never banned whites. European Americans were integral in its founding. The board’s own **december** used to be a proud member of the NAACP. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/12 "2007-06-04T22:21:13Z")
[QUOTE=Zsofia] Well, I mean, women can’t join the Masons and such and that seems to be perfectly legal. I thought as long as you’re private you can make any rules you want to. (Technically, a Mason can’t be deformed, either, although in practice I understand that’s no longer the case.) Black men may now be non-Prince Hall Masons in the South, although generally they don’t care to - but that’s a decision made as far as I know by individual Grand Lodges, not by law. [/QUOTE] There are Masonic bodies that accept women. Some have women only lodges, and others have women and men. So a woman can join the Masons, just not the Grand Lodge of England Masons. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/13 "2007-06-04T22:25:08Z")
The Congressional Black Caucus excludes whites. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/14 "2007-06-04T22:31:47Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] The Congressional Black Caucus excludes whites. [/QUOTE] Is that an official policy, or is it on a case by case basis? I know there was a recent incident, but what if, say, Bill Clinton got elected to the Senate… do you think they would exclude him? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/15 "2007-06-04T22:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Is that an official policy, or is it on a case by case basis? I know there was a recent incidence, but what if, say, Bill Clinton got elected to the Senate… do you think they would exclude him? [/QUOTE] Why would they exclude our first black president? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/16 "2007-06-04T22:35:09Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Why would they exclude our first black president? [/QUOTE] Well, that was exactly why I picked him. I bet they’d let him join. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/17 "2007-06-04T23:01:58Z")
Its pretty hard to discriminate based on race. States can’t issue liquor licenses to organizations that discriminate based on race. States cannot allow public funds or assets to subsidize any part of the discriminatory club’s acitivites. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/18 "2007-06-04T23:05:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Is that an official policy, or is it on a case by case basis? I know there was a recent incident, but what if, say, Bill Clinton got elected to the Senate… do you think they would exclude him? [/QUOTE] According to the following article, if the reporter is to be trusted, it is what you might call unofficial policy. But apparently policy nonetheless. [http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0107/2389.html](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0107/2389.html) Emphasis mine. > [@](#): > > As a white liberal running in a majority African American district, Tennessee Democrat Stephen I. Cohen made a novel pledge on the campaign trail last year: If elected, he would seek to become the first white member of the Congressional Black Caucus. > > Now that he’s a freshman in Congress, Cohen has changed his plans. He said he has dropped his bid after\*\* several current and former caucus members made it clear to him that whites need not apply\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/19 "2007-06-04T23:13:50Z")
I once joined a private club that excluded blacks, and I didn’t even know it. It had a swimming pond/beach in the Missouri Ozarks. Here’s how it worked. Remember: this was ca. 1960. We drove up to the gate. “Do you have a membership card?” We didn’t, but that didn’t seem to matter. We paid our entrance fee and received a new membership card. “Why do we need the membership card”? “So you can get in the next time.” “But we got in this time without one.” (wink, wink) “But you might not be able to get in next time.” “Why not?” “Because you need a membership card to get in.” Boy, we were stupid. It took us a half-hour to figure out what the (wink, wink) meant. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752/20 "2007-06-04T23:16:47Z")
The Rotary Club was forced to admit women. I would assume that ethnic minorities would be in the same boat, if your club was considered akin to the Rotary club. > **[BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF ROTARY INTERNATIONAL, et al., Appellants v. ROTARY CLUB...](https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/481/537)** The text there seems to imply that Rotary is not private enough. I am not an attorney, however. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-a-private-club-exclude-blacks-what-if-a-state-law-said-it-could/406752.md?page=2)