# "May I see your reciept?" No you department store goon! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 5, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847 "2003-02-05T02:29:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/61 "2003-02-05T22:50:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \* > If someone is making a big scene, you can detain them but once you lay hands on them to take them in the back room, you’re comitting false imprisonment, assault, or a similar crime and the person can fight back as if a random person on the street started grabbing them. I would seriously question the states right to suspend citizens arrest but I am not equipped to debate that particular issue. If that is the current legal case in NC private security is almost worthless. If they attempt to evade/run/etc you can’t touch them? You just let them go? Damn I need to move to NC. One pickup without licence plates and I will be living good. Just load up a TV on the cart and they can’t stop me except by sheer attitude? If this is serious and enforceable, under NC law I would have been executed by now for the forcible arrests I have been involved in. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/62 "2003-02-05T22:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > drachillix quote: > In many respects a police officer (despite many contrary opinions) is not all that much more entitled to arrest you than a private citizen. They have additional expertise that makes it more likely to support their claim in court and additional tools to enable them to do so in a safer and or more efficent manner. That is not quite correct. Accoding to this site: [http://library.lp.findlaw.com/articles/file/00075/001110/title/Subject/topic/Criminal%20Law\_Search%20and%20Seizure%20-%204th%20Amendment/filename/criminallaw\_1\_139](http://library.lp.findlaw.com/articles/file/00075/001110/title/Subject/topic/Criminal%20Law_Search%20and%20Seizure%20-%204th%20Amendment/filename/criminallaw_1_139) "Who Can Make An Arrest? Any law enforcement officer such as a policeman, sheriff, deputy sheriff or state trooper can make a lawful arrest. The arrest may be made with a warrant or, under certain circumstances, without a warrant. … … A law enforcement officer must have a warrant for your arrest unless one of the following circumstances exists: The law enforcement officer has reasonable ground to believe that a warrant for your arrest has been issued in this state or in another jurisdiction. You committed or attempted to commit a crime in the presence of the officer. The officer has reasonable ground to believe both that a crime has been committed and that you are the person who committed it. Citizen’'s Arrest A private citizen may make an arrest under certain circumstances. The law permits a citizen to detain, or place under arrest a person who commits or attempts to commit a criminal offense in his presence other than an ordinance violation. All the person making the arrest has to do is prevent the accused from leaving. He may take the person by the arm and say something like, ‘Stop. I’‘m holding you for the police.’" “It is best not to resist a citizen’s arrest, although you **can’t be prosecuted for resisting arrest.** You may be found guilty of assault and battery.” So in other words: 1. A police officer is really the only person who can arrest you. A citizen can only hold you breifly until the police arrive. 2. You are not required to submit to a citizens arrest. That does not mean you can go off like a Ninja on PCP, but you can cetainly tell the guy to get bent. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/63 "2003-02-05T23:10:07Z")
Costco in my are of California does this. They have a sign explaining why too. Something about they just wanted to make sure the computer charged you correctly or something. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/64 "2003-02-05T23:11:05Z")
I don’t know if it’s the same in America, but here in England, if you prove obnoxious, the store can simply say, “Don’t come back.” and refuse to serve you in future. A supermarket near where I used to live had photo-ids of recent bannees at each till. With computerised tills, it’s easy to add someone to a banned list. In England you don’t have to sell to someone. On the customer side, I’d go with the saying from Goldfinger: ‘Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, thrice is enemy action’. And it does behove you to be polite and reasonable. That security guard may have a second job as the bouncer for the nightclub you visit that evening and simply refuse you entry. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/65 "2003-02-05T23:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > Citizen’'s Arrest > A private citizen may make an arrest under certain circumstances. The law permits a citizen to detain, or place under arrest a person who commits or attempts to commit a criminal offense in his presence other than an ordinance violation. All the person making the arrest has to do is prevent the accused from leaving. He may take the person by the arm and say something like, ‘Stop. I’‘m holding you for the police.’" > [@](#): > > 1. You are not required to submit to a citizens arrest. I’m confused The law permits me to detain him…but he doesn’t have to obey? > [@](#): > > “It is best not to resist a citizen’s arrest, although you **can’t be prosecuted for resisting arrest.** You may be found guilty of assault and battery.” Should this actually read you cannot be charged with the crime of resisting arrest in the case of a citizens arrest? Assault yes, but not resisting arrest. > [@](#): > > So in other words: > > 1. A police officer is really the only person who can arrest you. A citizen can only hold you breifly until the police arrive. but you just said > [@](#): > > A private citizen may make an arrest under certain circumstances. The law permits a citizen to detain, or place under arrest a person who commits or attempts to commit a criminal offense in his presence other than an ordinance violation. An ordinance violation IIRC would be something like parking violations and such but theft should qualify as a legit citizens arrest circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/66 "2003-02-05T23:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by D.E.S.K.Top668 \* > if I was leaving a store and didn’t hear them telling me to stop, would the law not allow me to seek compensation if security brought me down with a flying tackle from behind? Circumstances would dictate… Were you running away, merchandise in hand, after charging past the door check. As I was trained (admittedly not retail) this would elicit a flying tackle from security. If you were deaf and walking at a normal pace and they pounced on you without trying to otherwise get your attention (hand on shoulder or such) I would say you had a case. ---
**Author:** ![Caesar\_s\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/73ab20/32.png) [@Caesar\_s\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caesar_s_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/67 "2003-02-05T23:36:43Z")
The Costco in my area of Arizona checks everyone’s receipts before they leave. It’s partly because they don’t have the security measures that every store has, and also because they try to make sure you got everything you paid for. Several times the person checking the receipt has found something missing, and retrieved it for us. So it’s not just for theft prevention, anyway. And I’m rather glad Costco bothers to make sure everyone has the stuff they bought. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/68 "2003-02-05T23:49:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Caesar’s Ghost \* > So it’s not just for theft prevention, anyway. And I’m rather glad Costco bothers to make sure everyone has the stuff they bought. Hate to burst your bubble but the small improvement in service is a side effect…not the reason. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/69 "2003-02-06T00:13:16Z")
I don’t mind it at Costco. Just non-warehouse stores. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/70 "2003-02-06T01:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > \*\*I don’t mind it at Costco. Just non-warehouse stores. \*\* Just to clarify: Is the “membership” the difference Or the decor. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/71 "2003-02-06T02:35:48Z")
Actually, neither. But it was funny. I’ve never actually thought about why I find it acceptable someplaces but not others. Interesting. I’ll get back to you. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/72 "2003-02-06T03:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BigNik \* > Shops that display signs saying that they “reserve the right” to search your bags are of course incorrect, as they have no such right, and may expose the shops to sizable fines in the same way that signs saying “no refunds” or “no refunds on sale items” do, although this is debatable. [Cecil says](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_151.html). ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/73 "2003-02-06T04:39:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by handy \* > \*\*Costco in my are of California does this. They have a sign explaining why too. Something about they just wanted to make sure the computer charged you correctly or something. \*\* So the next time you leave Costco with a cart full of stuff pick up a can or box of something from your cart and ask him how much you should have been charged. Tell him he can’t look at the receipt. When he questions you point to the sign and tell him you want him to verify that you were charged the correct amount. Oh yeah, don’t stand too close when his brain explodes. 😃 The guys at the door know the price of three thing: a slice of pizza, a soda, and Tums. ---
**Author:** ![BigNik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@BigNik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigNik)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/74 "2003-02-06T05:12:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sleeping \* > \*\*[Cecil says](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_151.html). \*\* Cecil ain’t talking about the laws applicable in NSW. Displaying signs saying “no refunds” and not making exemptions as required by the Trade Practices Act 1987 are a criminal offence punishable by quite sizable fines (used to be $100,000 for corporations - I believe it’s now more). I have been given to understand that claims that people “reserve rights” they don’t have - in an effort to mislead others into believing that they may be under legal obligations that don’t exist - are similarly criminal acts, however I don’t have a cite on that to hand. Next time I’m in Redfern I’ll stop in at the Legal Centre and find the cite. As I said in my post, if a shop tells you - prior to entry - that you enter on the condition that they may search your bags, and you refuse, they may ask you to leave or arrest you on a specific charge. Even if they don’t post that sign, they may still ask, but they’re in breach of a (voluntary and non-binding) Retailers’ Code of Conduct. But if anyone goes so far as to lie about a legal right or privilege that doesn’t exist, I understand that this is an illegal act in itself. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/75 "2003-02-06T05:35:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\ ***Attrayant** : > > No, assault and battery merely means the action, or threat, of an offensive physical contact. Touching someone without their consent, even if it causes no injury, is the tort of assault. > > - Rick \*\* Ok, I have a question about this. I worked at a large, high end department store over the X-mas holidays. They hire undercover security people to stop shoplifting. According to the head security person: 1. Security has to see the person put the item in their coat/bag. 2. Follow them out the door. 3. Wait until they pull out the goods to inspect. 4. Nab em. There is a C-train platform close to the store, where, apparently, a number of shoplifters are caught. They decide to wait for the train and check out their loot. Some of the security people were talking, and one of the girls always gets the “Wetters” - that is, she grabs them on the C-Train platform and they pee their pants. I guess this has happened a number of times to the point that she has a reputation. So - when she grabs the shoplifter, isn’t she guilty of battery? I assume physical contact that makes you pee your pants would be considered offensive. Or does the fact that she’s seen the stolen merchandise outside of the store give her the right to jump on someone? Of course, I’m in Canada, but I would be interested to hear what the rules would be in the US also. A. ---
**Author:** ![BigNik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@BigNik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigNik)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/76 "2003-02-06T09:17:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BigNik \* > **I have been given to understand that claims that people “reserve rights” they don’t have - in an effort to mislead others into believing that they may be under legal obligations that don’t exist - are similarly criminal acts, however I don’t have a cite on that to hand. Next time I’m in Redfern I’ll stop in at the Legal Centre and find the cite.** Replying to myself. I feel oddly… cheap. I’ve checked online. Claiming a legal protection or requirement exists when it does not appears to be a breach of Section 307 of the Crimes Act 1900, punishable by imprisonment of up to two years and a fine of up to 200 penalty units. Go in peace. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/77 "2003-02-06T15:47:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alice\_in\_wonderland \* > According to the head security person: > > 1. Security has to see the person put the item in their coat/bag. > 2. Follow them out the door. > 3. Wait until they pull out the goods to inspect. > 4. Nab em. Many policies like this are written in such a way so that if they are fulfilled you have a carved in stone bust on the shoplifter. The store would rather lose a couple thousand in merchandise than lose a false arrest civil lawsuit. In some areas the simple act of concealing the item can be construed as an attempt to shoplift and can result in security taking action. Generally they will wait until you pass through or avoid the registers to make sure you are attempting to leave without paying for the items in question. > [@](#): > > So - when she grabs the shoplifter, isn’t she guilty of battery? I assume physical contact that makes you pee your pants would be considered offensive. Or does the fact that she’s seen the stolen merchandise outside of the store give her the right to jump on someone? Arresting someone is not assaulting them. Using _excessive force_ to arrest/detain someone is a whole separate can o’ worms. > [@](#): > > Of course, I’m in Canada, but I would be interested to hear what the rules would be in the US also. I have no experience with canadian law, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/78 "2003-02-06T16:18:09Z")
Well, first of all, I didn’t say any of this. It’s a selection of relevent excerpts from the link I posted. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > I’m confused The law permits me to detain him…but he doesn’t have to obey? The way I read it is that if you have reasonable cause that a person has committed a crime, you can use reasonable force to restrain them until the police arrive. That person is under no obligation to submit to your arrest, however. For example, if a police officer says “you’re under arrest” and you take off down the street, you’re in a lot of trouble. If Joe Blow does the same thing, nothing will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/79 "2003-02-06T17:05:25Z")
msmith537, note that the page you linked to is for Illinois - so it’s different than both CA and NC. I wouldn’t be suprised if the specifics of these laws were different in every state in the union, much less other countries. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > If that is the current legal case in NC private security is almost worthless. If they attempt to evade/run/etc you can’t touch them? You just let them go? I think you need to reread what I wrote. “you can detain someone… and hold them using reasonable force until the police arrive,” which is hardly ‘can’t touch them’. “you can detain them but once you lay hands on them **to take them in the back room,** ” force is fine to **hold** the person and keep them from escaping, but not to **move** the person without their consent. If I make a citizen’s detention of you, then I can’t touch you if you stand there and we both just wait for the police. If you try to run, then I can use “resonable force” to keep you detained, and “reasonable force” includes grabbing you, tripping you, or something along those lines. What I can’t do is use any force or threats to move you anywhere; we can agree to go somewhere else to wait for the police, but you can choose to stay right in the front of the store until the cops arrive. > [@](#): > > In some areas the simple act of concealing the item can be construed as an attempt to shoplift and can result in security taking action. In a lot of states, concealing merchandise is the crime of shoplifting, not taking it out of the store, so security can go ahead and take action then. I understand that even when concealing is shoplifting, stores usually like to wait for the person to try to leave the store to make the conviction more airtight. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847/80 "2003-02-06T18:07:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > For example, if a police officer says “you’re under arrest” and you take off down the street, you’re in a lot of trouble. > > If Joe Blow does the same thing, nothing will happen. If Joe Blow catches you you go to jail just like if the cop does. You just don’t get an additional “evading or resisting arrest” type charge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-see-your-reciept-no-you-department-store-goon/152847.md?page=5)