# May I shoot this guy? Legal Q, kinda. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036 "2009-04-14T04:47:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/21 "2009-04-14T16:37:37Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > INAL but I’m pretty that regardless of jurisdiction (even in the UK) at this point a reasonable person would consider his life in mortal danger, and be legitimate to use deadly force (as long as there were witnesses to him doing this). Here in SC at least, your wife has no duty to retreat in her car. (And if that wasn’t true, she’s still arguably trapped in the car.) According to my CCW class, that would be a good shoot in South Carolina. Would a reasonable person have felt themselves in mortal danger? I’d say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/22 "2009-04-14T16:40:41Z")
Since his hand is already on the gun, the point is probably moot. He’d shoot you first. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/23 "2009-04-14T17:00:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Since his hand is already on the gun, the point is probably moot. He’d shoot you first. Well since the **OP** said his friend said it happened to him recently, and didn’t mention that the friend and/or his wife were shot, I’d have to assume the Strange Jerk either didn’t have a gun at all, or at least didn’t pull it out and start shooting. And that’s where it could get interesting. According to most USA self-defense laws, you have to “reasonably” believe yourself or another to be in imminent danger. That’s where a DA or a jury would have to make a judgement - was your belief reasonable? If it turned out the guy you shot DID have a gun, that’s a much easier conclusion to make - you actually were in danger, so your belief you were in danger seems pretty reasonable. But if he didn’t have a gun - then you get into a more difficult situation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/24 "2009-04-14T17:06:36Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Well since the **OP** said his friend said it happened to him recently, and didn’t mention that the friend and/or his wife were shot, I’d have to assume the Strange Jerk either didn’t have a gun at all, or at least didn’t pull it out and start shooting. No, but the OP didn’t say his friend was packing and/or went for his gun, either. I’d have to assume that if I was packing and went for my gun, Strange Jerk would have gone for his (if he had one), and would be a lot quicker on the draw with his hand already on it. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/25 "2009-04-14T17:30:41Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > I doubt reaching into his pants would be enough to warrant shooting him. If he pulled a gun out, yes, but you don’t even know if he has a weapon. > > In the CCW class I took, we were told that if we saw an armed robber running out of the bank, we couldn’t fire unless he started to bring the gun up. If seeing a robber with a gun doesn’t equate immediate danger, neither would someone reaching into their pants. I would like to state that I have never had a problem with anybody reaching into their pants, and shall never object, nor bring bodily harm, deliberately, to somebody reaching into their pants. Heck, I’ve even reached into my pants myself, and never felt that that warranted so much as a gentle rebuke, let alone being shot. Reaching into pants was never the issue of the OP. hh ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/26 "2009-04-14T17:41:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I would like to state that I have never had a problem with anybody reaching into their pants, and shall never object, nor bring bodily harm, deliberately, to somebody reaching into their pants. I’m assuming that they didn’t precede this by breaking into somebody’s car, demanding money, and making threats of violence. That puts the action in a different context. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/27 "2009-04-14T17:42:43Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I would like to state that I have never had a problem with anybody reaching into their pants, and shall never object, nor bring bodily harm, deliberately, to somebody reaching into their pants. Heck, I’ve even reached into my pants myself, and never felt that that warranted so much as a gentle rebuke, let alone being shot. Reaching into pants was never the issue of the OP. > hh I guess that’s a point, maybe its all a misunderstanding. The guy is in the habit of talking to his cigarettes, which he keeps in his underwear 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/28 "2009-04-14T17:46:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m assuming that they didn’t precede this by breaking into somebody’s car, demanding money, and making threats of violence. That puts the action in a different context. Well, _somebody_ has clearly never picked up a street hooker. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/29 "2009-04-14T17:56:36Z")
> [@WormTheRed](#): > > Go straight to jail, do not pass go - and you’d have gun-charges added to what you did. > > At least that’s what would happen here in Iceland. So what are you supposed to do, in that situation, in Iceland? Die? Become a martyr for Iceland’s government-mandated pacifism? Do they at least allow non-lethal forms of defense like stun guns? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/30 "2009-04-14T18:03:09Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > So what are you supposed to do, in that situation, in Iceland? Die? Become a martyr for Iceland’s government-mandated pacifism? I would guess you say, “Hey, I live in Iceland, where nobody has a handgun, so his balls are probably just itchy.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/31 "2009-04-14T18:05:58Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > So what are you supposed to do, in that situation, in Iceland? Die? Become a martyr for Iceland’s government-mandated pacifism? > > Do they at least allow non-lethal forms of defense like stun guns? Pray for shrinkage 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/32 "2009-04-14T18:17:35Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > So what are you supposed to do, in that situation, in Iceland? Die? Become a martyr for Iceland’s government-mandated pacifism? > > Do they at least allow non-lethal forms of defense like stun guns? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I would guess you say, “Hey, I live in Iceland, where nobody has a handgun, so his balls are probably just itchy.” RNATB got it in one. And I really don’t know what would happen, legally, if we substitute guns for knifes. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/33 "2009-04-14T18:31:36Z")
I wouldn’t blame you if you shoot him. You have to protect your family. You could get in trouble for it though. ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/34 "2009-04-14T18:46:42Z")
I think shooting the guy is pretty reasonable, but your fate may depend on who the guy turns out to be. If the guy has a record and a weapon, the shooting will be deemed justified. If he turns out to be a homeless guy reaching for his squeegee, and you might be in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/35 "2009-04-14T19:05:14Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#): > > I wouldn’t blame you if you shoot him. You have to protect your family. You could get in trouble for it though. I sort of love this answer (for surrous!), mainly because it describes being indicted for a capital offense as just “getting in trouble.” But with the consolation that at least you wouldn’t blame him. Understatement is so seldom done these days. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/36 "2009-04-14T21:48:17Z")
Just wanted to add… In addition to the (recently) enacted ‘castle doctrine’ in Texas–that is, no duty to retreat–that same legislative session gave Texans civil immunity in these types of shootings. Per the OP’s scenario, I concur with ‘good shoot’ based on my Texas CHL class. ---
**Author:** ![SanDiegoTim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@SanDiegoTim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanDiegoTim)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/37 "2009-04-14T21:58:24Z")
Having shot two intruders breaking into my house at 1:00 AM, and killing one, I have a bit of experience. In my situation one thing was not in doubt…these two guys were caught in the midst of a crime. In the scenario described it’s not quite as clear. Could be a problem. What made my shooting justified (in the county where I live) was my belief that my life and the lives of my family were in danger. Very plausible, all things considered. The scenario described could be a little iffy in that a gun was never seen and unless someone else heard what was said, the threat would be tough to prove. Therefore, shooting him might be judged as being disproportionate. Back to my situation, because it was dark I had no way of knowing whether these guys were aremed or not (they were, albeit with knives). While the thought of liability crossed my mind, the decision to do what I did was based upon what I believed my #1 priority was. I distinctly remember answering this question in my mind…protect my family. No charges filed. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/38 "2009-04-14T22:12:18Z")
Classic common law allowed a person to use reasonable force in defence of person, property and even a third person (_R v Rose_ and an overreaction in the circumstances would be permitted (_Shannon_.What cosntistuted reasonable meant, would a reasonable man in the defendants position have acted in the same way. Of course it depends on the juridiction, but generally this (with some modifications) is what is followed in the common law world. Now in reality a lot more info would be needed, I can well see witnesses being being examined in chief and cross examined on many things, how far was the defendant, how his eyesight is like, what the lighting was like, how long did he observe etc. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/39 "2009-04-14T22:53:12Z")
> [@SanDiegoTim](#): > > Having shot two intruders breaking into my house at 1:00 AM, and killing one, I have a bit of experience. In my situation one thing was not in doubt…these two guys were caught in the midst of a crime. In the scenario described it’s not quite as clear. Could be a problem. What made my shooting justified (in the county where I live) was my belief that my life and the lives of my family were in danger. Very plausible, all things considered. > > The scenario described could be a little iffy in that a gun was never seen and unless someone else heard what was said, the threat would be tough to prove. Therefore, shooting him might be judged as being disproportionate. Back to my situation, because it was dark I had no way of knowing whether these guys were aremed or not (they were, albeit with knives). > > While the thought of liability crossed my mind, the decision to do what I did was based upon what I believed my #1 priority was. I distinctly remember answering this question in my mind…protect my family. No charges filed. Not to derail but wow, that is impressive. People talk about this situation hypothetically all the time but I’ve never met anyone who has actually lived it. Have you considered starting a thread “Ask the person who has killed a man?”. I’d love to see that, if you’re comfortable talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036/40 "2009-04-14T23:16:24Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > A friend told me that this happened to him recently, and I was thinking that if I was packing, and it was my family member in the car, the guy would be in **Valhalla** this evening. He wouldn’t go to Valhalla. That’s for the chosen (i.e., honoured) dead. Being a scumbag mugger, he’d probably go elsewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/may-i-shoot-this-guy-legal-q-kinda/493036.md?page=3)