# Maybe Chik-Fil-A and Dan Cathy aren't bigots? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361 "2013-02-05T04:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/241 "2013-02-08T03:23:44Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Any survey that finds a majority of Catholics or Protestants supports gay marriage is obviously flawed. There’s research providing valuable contraindications to intuition and then there’s ludicrous results produce by obviously flawed methodologies. I wish your arguing that a majority of Americans supported gay marriage could actually make it true as you apparently think it does, but the results of actual elections and the behavior of actual Christians makes it obvious that this is not the case. This is nothing more than unsupported bravado on your part. I seriously doubt that you have any evidence that major surveys on the issue are flawed. I note, for example, that you rely on election results to support your belief. This, of course, ignores the reality that elections, (particularly referenda), are expensive to promote and that the results of recent elections have steadily been turning away from the anti-SSM position. There were a number of elections in 2004–concurrent with the Republican tide that kept GWB in the presidency–in which the anti-SSM forces prevailed, but since that time, state after state has swung in the opposite direction and polls taken in the states that voted against SSM in 2004 have shown a large number of people have since changed their views. I have no idea whether a poll showing support for SSM greater than 50% is truly indicative of the U.S. population today (although I have seen no survey in the last six months that says otherwise). However, both the polls and the elections have steadily swung in that direction in the past eight years and I see no reason to believe that the figure will not be much greater than 50% by 2014. What is the explicit methodology that is incorrect in the following polls? > **[For First Time, Majority of Americans Favor Legal Gay Marriage](https://news.gallup.com/poll/147662/First-Time-Majority-Americans-Favor-Legal-Gay-Marriage.aspx)** > > For the first time in Gallup's tracking of the issue, a majority of Americans (53%) believe same-sex marriage should be recognized by the law as valid. The increase from 44% last year came exclusively from political independents and Democrats.... > **[rel5e.pdf](https://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/06/06/rel5e.pdf)** > > 231.50 KB [http://www.langerresearch.com/uploads/1137a2GayMarriage.pdf](http://www.langerresearch.com/uploads/1137a2GayMarriage.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/242 "2013-02-08T03:27:18Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Any survey that finds a majority of Catholics or Protestants supports gay marriage is obviously flawed. This is the “No True Christian” argument and it’s just as wrong as when applied to Scotsmen. If you have data, please present it. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/243 "2013-02-08T03:30:35Z")
2004? There wasn’t a single election that supported marriage equality until three months ago. Every one before that went the other way and there were more than 0 in the eight year interval. The Catholic Church has obligated its members to donate time and money to anti-gay and specifically anti-marriage causes. The idea that only 51% of members support this is crazy. You don’t “support gay marriage” by serving on the “going door to door telling people to vote against gay marriage or go to hell” committee. By definition, anyone who has not left the Catholic Church is anti-gay, and a good way to confirm this is by talking to Catholics. Surveys showing a majority of _Americans_ believe in such and such versus what a majority of _Christians_ believe, and the big difference between these polls and the ballot results (the new Bradley effect) speak for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/244 "2013-02-08T03:32:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > One may, of course, argue that the attitudes of people who oppose same sex marriage echo the attitudes of those who opposed inter-racial marriage, but the reality is that there has never been a time when inter-racial marriage was simply not recognized as “real.” Then perhaps a better analogy would be the definition of marriage as between “two persons neither of whom has a previous spouse still living”. There have been entire societies where it was universally accepted that if you got married and your spouse was still alive somewhere, then it was simply impossible—not just illegal, but fundamentally impossible and not “real”—to be married to a subsequent spouse. The very nature of marriage was held to exclude the possibility of sequential marriage unless the original spouse was dead. Most people are perfectly satisfied with our society’s having redefined the essential nature of marriage away from that fundamental claim (although there are still some who stick to it). I think few people nowadays would argue that a divorced person with a living ex-spouse who wants to go through a marriage ceremony with another person is somehow “taking something away” from or “destroying” traditional marriage. But in the past, the idea that marriage was immutable and exclusive until death did you part was as essential and fundamental to its “reality” as the idea that marriage was between a man and a woman. So I still think it’s disingenuous to argue that such fundamental characteristics of marriage can’t or shouldn’t be changed in the legal recognition of marriage, because it’s clear that they can and they have been. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/245 "2013-02-08T03:38:42Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Any survey that finds a majority of Catholics or Protestants supports gay marriage is obviously flawed. There’s research providing valuable contraindications to intuition and then there’s ludicrous results produce by obviously flawed methodologies. I wish your arguing that a majority of Americans supported gay marriage could actually make it true as you apparently think it does, but the results of actual elections and the behavior of actual Christians makes it obvious that this is not the case. Considering the success of all the initiatives legalizing gay marriage and the failure of those banning them in the four states that had such initiatives last year, such a view seems to be backed up the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/246 "2013-02-08T03:47:30Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Surveys showing a majority of _Americans_ believe in such and such versus what a majority of _Christians_ believe, and the big difference between these polls and the ballot results (the new Bradley effect) speak for themselves. One of the things they speak to is that the percentage of Christians who do support same-sex marriage is rapidly increasing. It seems kind of silly to get so furious about “Christians” as an undifferentiated group on charges of mass homophobia when views on gay rights among so many Christians are changing so significantly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/247 "2013-02-08T04:00:40Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The Catholic Church has obligated its members to donate time and money to anti-gay and specifically anti-marriage causes. The idea that only 51% of members support this is crazy. You don’t “support gay marriage” by serving on the “going door to door telling people to vote against gay marriage or go to hell” committee. By definition, anyone who has not left the Catholic Church is anti-gay, and a good way to confirm this is by talking to Catholics. The Catholic Church has also obligated its members to eschew contraception. The notion that Catholics are in some sort of lock step obedience to the Vatican is an idea more suited to 1950s (or 1920s) era Catholic bashing than a serious discussion. You are technically correct that Catholics do not include a majority who favor SSM. However, the numbers are not as lopsided as you would like to suppose: nearly two years ago 43% did favor SSM and another 31% favored civil unions and I see no reason to believe that there has been a retrograde shift in the intervening 23 months: [[ul] [li]Catholics are more supportive of legal recognitions of same-sex relationships than members of any other Christian tradition and Americans overall. Nearly three-quarters of Catholics favor either allowing gay and lesbian people to marry (43%) or allowing them to form civil unions (31%). Only 22% of Catholics say there should be no legal recognition of a gay couple’s relationship.[/li][li]When same-sex marriage is defined explicitly as a civil marriage, support is dramatically higher among Catholics. If marriage for gay couples is defined as a civil marriage “like you get at city hall,” Catholic support for allowing gay couples to marry increases by 28 points, from 43% to 71%. A similar pattern exists in the general population, but the Catholic increase is more pronounced.[/li][/ul]](http://publicreligion.org/research/2011/03/for-catholics-open-attitudes-on-gay-issues/) ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/248 "2013-02-08T04:02:02Z")
Yes, it’s just so bigoted to assume that Catholics subscribe to Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/249 "2013-02-08T04:11:57Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Yes, it’s just so bigoted to assume that Catholics subscribe to Catholicism. I said nothing about bigotry. I noted that your rhetoric, (still unsupported by any evidence), is reminiscent of claims in the 1920s and 1950s that U.S. Catholics “took orders from Rome.” It was not true, then. It is not true, now. I have no idea what your beliefs are on the topic, but when you make odd claims that the ‘_Catholic Church has obligated its members to donate time and money to anti-gay and specifically anti-marriage causes_’ and that Catholics are ‘_serving on the “going door to door telling people to vote against gay marriage or go to hell” committee_’, you are engaging in the same sort of anti-Catholic rhetoric that mostly fell into disrepute after the election of JFK. I would not be surprised to discover that some bishop somewhere urged his diocese to campaign against SSM, but no bishop “obligated” anyone to do so either with time or money. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/250 "2013-02-08T04:13:32Z")
Jesus, maybe you should get slightly informed about this issue (and why in the world would any moral person not be “anti-Catholic”, anyway?) > **[Bodenwischer - Tests, Infos & Tipps zu Bodenwischer](https://bodenwischer-tests.de)** > > Der eigene Bodenwischer ist der wichtigste Begleiter im täglichen Haushalt. Ob für Parkett, Fliesen oder Laminat: Qualität, Ausstattung und Preis spielen bei der Kaufentscheidung eine große Rolle. Auf dieser Seite findest du ausführliche... ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/251 "2013-02-08T04:22:17Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Jesus, maybe you should get slightly informed about this issue (and why in the world would any moral person not be “anti-Catholic”, anyway?) > > [Bodenwischer - Tests, Infos & Tipps zu Bodenwischer](http://minnesotaindependent.com/89988/archdiocese-plans-anti-gay-marriage-committees-in-every-minnesota-catholic-church) Nothing you’re saying is refuting what Tom is saying, to such an extent that I’m not sure you’ve even read what he’s saying. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/252 "2013-02-08T04:30:12Z")
**CR** is well on his way to being a Libertarian opposite number of **Der Trihs** without the latter’s occasional sense of humour. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/253 "2013-02-08T05:03:49Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > There’s research providing valuable contraindications to intuition and then there’s ludicrous results produce by obviously flawed methodologies. Since the flaws are so obvious, care to describe them? > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > Surveys showing a majority of _Americans_ believe in such and such versus what a majority of _Christians_ believe, and the big difference between these polls and the ballot results (the new Bradley effect) speak for themselves. Polls now show that [support for the war in Afghanistan](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/world/asia/support-for-afghan-war-falls-in-us-poll-finds.html?_r=0) is down to 31% of Americans, and yet we’re still at war. Does this mean that the poll methodology is flawed, or that those polled are lying? No, it means that people’s opinions don’t translate directly into policy, it must pass through a complex and slow political process first. > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > Yes, it’s just so bigoted to assume that Catholics subscribe to Catholicism. No, THIS is bigoted: > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > why in the world would any moral person not be “anti-Catholic”, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/254 "2013-02-08T05:32:41Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Jesus, maybe you should get slightly informed about this issue (and why in the world would any moral person not be “anti-Catholic”, anyway?) > > [Bodenwischer - Tests, Infos & Tipps zu Bodenwischer](http://minnesotaindependent.com/89988/archdiocese-plans-anti-gay-marriage-committees-in-every-minnesota-catholic-church) Nienstedt pretty well meets my definition of “some bishop somewhere.” (I haven’t checked, lately, but I would not be surprised to find Archbishop Bruskewitz did something similar before he retired–again, “some bishop somewhere”–but I have not heard of his successor pushing such a plan.) If you follow up on the situation in Minnesota, you will find that while Nienstedt urged, (not “obligated”), his diocese to put his odd plan in motion, he was unable even to get all his pastors to go along with his efforts, much less the majority of their parishioners. (Many did, of course, but nowhere near 50%.) With another 270+ diocese in the country, you are going to have to provide a bit more evidence that this is a church wide effort that is embraced by some huge percentage of Catholics rather than sporadic efforts by individuals within the church. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/255 "2013-02-09T21:34:25Z")
My sister is okay with same sex marriage, and she’s about the most diehard fundie I know. Her argument? “Maybe if we let them do it, they’ll shut up about it. It’s not like it matters anyway.” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/256 "2013-02-10T03:00:27Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > My sister is okay with same sex marriage, and she’s about the most diehard fundie I know. Her argument? “Maybe if we let them do it, they’ll shut up about it. It’s not like it matters anyway.” This argument has certain merit. Considering that divorce for any reason (and no reason at all) is allowed and except for occasional rhetoric very few people wish to reverse this fact it is a bit ridiculous to think gay marriage is a be-all and end-all issue even from a socially conservative viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/257 "2013-02-10T03:28:37Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > I also think the pro gay marriage people have an inferiority complex that is keeping them from seeing reason. So let’s say for the sake of wild crazy argument that all resistance drops and homosexuals can marry all across the U.S., with no legal distinction made between a same-sex and differing-sex marriage. Chaos? Anarchy? Seriously, what’s the worst possible outcome, seven or eight years down the road? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/258 "2013-02-10T16:19:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So let’s say for the sake of wild crazy argument that all resistance drops and homosexuals can marry all across the U.S., with no legal distinction made between a same-sex and differing-sex marriage. > > Chaos? Anarchy? Seriously, what’s the worst possible outcome, seven or eight years down the road? They become… CANADIAN!!! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/259 "2013-02-10T16:54:32Z")
Hey, that was going to be MY punchline! ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361/260 "2013-02-10T16:58:50Z")
I’ve come to realize that when SSM advocates talk about equality, they don’t mean equality under the law or equality offered by civil unions. No, they mean equality in the eyes of others. Not just some others, all others. And they are never going to get that. They’re doomed to being pissed forever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-chik-fil-a-and-dan-cathy-arent-bigots/649361.md?page=14)