# Maybe I'm just not cut out for work **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 9, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826 "2009-05-09T04:46:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/21 "2009-05-11T20:31:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Legal is both “necessary” and “important” to many if not most businesses. > > As an example, creative IP businesses cannot make do without legal input. That artistic endeavour avails you not at all if you are not _paid_ for it. Yes, legal is important to most businesses. So is accounting. So is the mailroom and the facilities management people (AKA the janitors). But it is only the IP producer who creates the artistic endeavors who is actually making a unique acomplishment. Maybe the lawyer feels a sense of pride whenever he fills out the right permit forms or successfully defends some sort of IP litigation on behalf of the company. Maybe the accountant feels a sense of accomplishment after every quarterly filing. Who knows. From what I’ve seen, they mostly just view them as tasks to complete so they can move on to the next task. I think my point (insomuch as I actually have one) is that most of us work in supporting jobs that provide few, if any, “look what I did!” moments. These jobs may pay well enough, but it’s not surprising that many people have that “concept of actually accomplishing something is avoiding me” feeling the OP has. So, IMHO, that if you want that sense of actually acomplishing something, you either need to find it is small doses in your current job or go out and find something that actually provides you with what you need to feel that. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/22 "2009-05-12T15:14:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It was a response to the thread title. The OP didn’t say “I’m not cut out for THIS work”. She said “work” as if her year of post law school employment is representative of the entire working world and isn’t for her. So you responded to the thread title, yet ignored the substance. That TOTALLY makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/23 "2009-05-12T15:46:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yes, legal is important to most businesses. So is accounting. So is the mailroom and the facilities management people (AKA the janitors). But it is only the IP producer who creates the artistic endeavors who is actually making a unique acomplishment. Maybe the lawyer feels a sense of pride whenever he fills out the right permit forms or successfully defends some sort of IP litigation on behalf of the company. Maybe the accountant feels a sense of accomplishment after every quarterly filing. Who knows. From what I’ve seen, they mostly just view them as tasks to complete so they can move on to the next task. > > I think my point (insomuch as I actually have one) is that most of us work in supporting jobs that provide few, if any, “look what I did!” moments. These jobs may pay well enough, but it’s not surprising that many people have that “concept of actually accomplishing something is avoiding me” feeling the OP has. > > So, IMHO, that if you want that sense of actually acomplishing something, you either need to find it is small doses in your current job or go out and find something that actually provides you with what you need to feel that. You are quite wrong, far enough off to be rather hilarious. 😃 When a lawyer wins a case, they get a very real sense of accomplishment, believe me. How many jobs out there have such obvious peak moments as _winning in court_ in front of the whole world? Lots of lawyers are addicted to that rush. Think of it. When you make an argument in court and _win_, your words alone are making a total difference in people’s lives, sometimes in the course of the economy as a whole - where it is precedent-setting decision, it can have an effect for years. Based on _your_ skill, your words alone. An artist designing a better logo for a cereal box or whatever has nothing on that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/24 "2009-05-12T16:45:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > When a lawyer wins a case, they get a very real sense of accomplishment, believe me. How many jobs out there have such obvious peak moments as _winning in court_ in front of the whole world? > > Lots of lawyers are addicted to that rush. Think of it. When you make an argument in court and _win_, your words alone are making a total difference in people’s lives, sometimes in the course of the economy as a whole - where it is precedent-setting decision, it can have an effect for years. Based on _your_ skill, your words alone. You must be in law school. Everyone I know who went into law school sounded exactly like you do right now. I would imagine that when they come out and start actually working in the law, they find that they aren’t doing all that stuff you describe and are mostly spending long hours working in some big law firm or corporate legal department filing paperwork or reading through contracts or whatever it is they do that isn’t like being in a John Grisham novel. > [@Malthus](#): > > An artist designing a better logo for a cereal box or whatever has nothing on that. Actually, to the graphic designer it is. > [@Hello Again](#): > > So you responded to the thread title, yet ignored the substance. That TOTALLY makes sense. What is your deal? ---
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/25 "2009-05-12T16:53:44Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It was a response to the thread title. The OP didn’t say “I’m not cut out for THIS work”. She said “work” as if her year of post law school employment is representative of the entire working world and isn’t for her. > I have to question why the OP thinks the boss is “putting up with her”. Is it, like \*\*Dottygumdrop \*\*stated, some sort of female confidence issue or is there a real performance problem there? And is it an actual performance problem in a sense that she is failing to follow directions or meet deadlines or is it just she isn’t clicking with the boss? > > Also, how much of this is just finding out her Allie McBiel / Elle Woods spunky female lawyer setting the legal world on fire fantasies are unrealistic? A lot of being a lawyer is pretty mundane, repetitive, tedious and unglamorous and I have to think that the most mundane, repetitive, tedious and unglamorous work tends to be given to first years. So it might just be a matter of paying your dues for a few years. Tabby is a guy. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510997](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510997) (post 27) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/26 "2009-05-12T17:51:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You must be in law school. Everyone I know who went into law school sounded exactly like you do right now. I would imagine that when they come out and start actually working in the law, they find that they aren’t doing all that stuff you describe and are mostly spending long hours working in some big law firm or corporate legal department filing paperwork or reading through contracts or whatever it is they do that isn’t like being in a John Grisham novel. Wrong again, kemosabe. 😃 I’ve been in practice (in a major law firm no less) since my year of call - 1997. I would guess that my more than a decade of working in the field sort of outranks your “stuff I heard from some acquaintance” in terms of, say, actually knowing what the practice of law is like - but on the Dope, you never know. It isn’t like a Grisham novel - so far, no conspiracies to kill me, for one. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/27 "2009-05-12T18:50:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Wrong again, kemosabe. 😃 > > I’ve been in practice (in a major law firm no less) since my year of call - 1997. I would guess that my more than a decade of working in the field sort of outranks your “stuff I heard from some acquaintance” in terms of, say, actually knowing what the practice of law is like - but on the Dope, you never know. I’m sure their descriptions are as equally valid. They just didn’t see being a lawyer the same way you do. Which I guess is kind of the point. If you don’t get charged up by your work on some level, it might be time to look for a new line of work. > [@KSO](#): > > Tabby is a guy. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=510997](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=510997) (post 27) Huh. How about that. Well that will teach him to name himself after a female cat. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/28 "2009-05-12T18:54:38Z")
It strikes me, as a layman, that are are many, many different branches within the practice of the law. If corporate law (or whatever) isn’t for you, perhaps you could move to another practice which deals with a more appealing topic? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/29 "2009-05-12T19:24:50Z")
I suggest you find a mentor. You could seek one either inside or outside your organization. See if there’s a mentoring program (may HR can point you in the right direction). If not, is there someone you admire there who you feel you can ask for some guidance? ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/30 "2009-05-13T01:41:11Z")
Well this thread has taken off! I wasn’t expecting so many responses to my whinge written while I was at work on a Sunday.. Anyway, I think **dottygumdrop** explained exactly how I feel when she said > [@](#): > > This was complicated by that usual female knack of thinking I was even more useless than I was. I felt like a fraud, doing work and giving advice when in all honesty, I felt like I had no clue what I was doing and sooner or later, someone else would figure it out. I finally got to work under the supervision of a truly exceptional lawyer (a female partner who was the best combination of technical skill and mentoring). This partner told me that she had felt the same way right up until she made partner, until she finally realised that if the partners believed in her, it was about time she did! Except for the partner part, of course. So that’s where I am now, and it’s comforting to know that I’m not the only one.. > [@msmith537](#): > > Huh. How about that. Well that will teach him to name himself after a female cat. :eyebrow: > [@Kalhoun](#): > > I suggest you find a mentor. You could seek one either inside or outside your organization. See if there’s a mentoring program (may HR can point you in the right direction). If not, is there someone you admire there who you feel you can ask for some guidance? I think that’s part of the problem, actually.. the associate whom I work with, who is 1 year my senior, is exceptionally suited to legal work. Every file I work on with him, the gulf between me and him.. well. He’s really really nice, and helps me a lot more than I deserve, really, and I feel bad making him “do” more work because of me. Which feeds into this whole god I can’t do a single thing right mentality.. I guess I’m whinging again. 😃 But all your stories of your first year of practice are somewhat encouraging, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Sonnenstrahl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Sonnenstrahl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonnenstrahl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/31 "2009-05-13T01:56:16Z")
Do you talk about [imposter syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome) in law school? The feeling that everyone there is qualified but it was a mistake that you got in? I’ve heard about it a lot in a graduate school context. It sounds like it’s a very common feeling. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/32 "2009-05-13T02:19:16Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > :eyebrow: I don’t know why you’re giving me the eyebrow. **Hello Again** thought you were a girl too. I have to agree with the mentor thing. It helps if you can find someone who is senior within the firm who can provide you guidance. Another option is that you might want to find a career that’s tangential to the law but isn’t actually being a lawyer. For the past 5 years I’ve been in litigation consulting. Basically that is sort of a broad area of management consulting that can mean anything from performing valuations and other financial analysis for Enron and Madoff type cases to computer forensics and electronic discovery. There are tons of companies in this industry and they hire lawyers for all sorts of positions like sales and marketing, consulting services, project management and so on. As I said, I meet a lot of attorneys who decided they didn’t like practicing law for whatever reason and decided to get more on the business side. > [@Sonnenstrahl](#): > > Do you talk about [imposter syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome) in law school? The feeling that everyone there is qualified but it was a mistake that you got in? I’ve heard about it a lot in a graduate school context. It sounds like it’s a very common feeling. I’m always worried that my last job was so stupid that when I start my new job, everyone will think I’m a total idiot. That always goes away oncel my new boss opens his mouth for the first time ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/33 "2009-05-13T02:35:57Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > I’ve been having this nagging suspicion that I’m entirely in over my head in my job now. > > I’ve been a lawyer for a year now, and I get the feeling that everyone thinks I’m a bit of a dunce. A nice and friendly dunce, but a dunce nevertheless. > > I suppose I do have the raw intelligence, but I don’t have any of the ambition, drive, assertiveness, or fucking common sense needed to get through my job. When your boss tells you that you’re being incoherent.. damn. > > Not that I begrudge him or anything, I think he’s put up with me for quite a while now, and he’s really as good a boss as anyone could expect. It’s really.. me. > I was thinking of asking for advice on how to.. you know, WORK. It seems like I’m going through the motions, but I’m never getting anything done. I don’t know how to explain it. It’s like the concept of actually accomplishing something is avoiding me. I don’t even know where to start. I’m a lawyer too. A couple of things: 1. You feel like a dunce because you are a dunce. Being a lawyer is hard and takes years to learn. On the bright side, at least you realize it. Some young lawyers think they are the next best thing since Learned Hand had a three-way love child with Posner and Earl Warren (or whatever). 2. I’ll assume you bill by the hour (as opposed to being a prosecutor or on the plaintiff side). Sometimes lawyers (i.e., your bosses) don’t pad hours per se, but they encourage robust billing on certain matters that can support it. So, just because they ask you to do something again doesn’t mean that you didn’t do it right the first time (but see 1). This may be why you feel you can’t get anything accomplished. Sometimes getting something accomplished too quickly is a bad thing. 3. Sometimes old lawyers get set in their ways and don’t want to listen to new ideas, even when the law changes and the new idea is the right idea. So, you may not have been incoherent exactly, you just may have been looking at something in a way that the old dude hasn’t before, and you may be right (but, again, see 1). ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/34 "2009-05-13T02:38:30Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t know why you’re giving me the eyebrow. **Hello Again** thought you were a girl too. Tabbies are not girl cats gosh darn it! :mad: 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/35 "2009-05-13T02:39:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Law? Accounting? Banking and finance? Has it occured to anyone that you aren’t actually “acomplishing” anything? At least not anything tangible that you can point to and say “look what I did!” Most of what these jobs do is filling out and filing paperwork or pushing numbers around a spread sheet as a small cog in a large corporate machine. > > If you want to feel like you acomplished something, become some kind of engineer, start your own business, pursue some sort of artistic endevour, or invent some new product or process. Bah. People in these jobs give advice to other people, and those other people accomplish things. The accomplishers can accomplish more things and better based on the advice. So buck up, dude (I know you are in one of “these jobs” also). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/36 "2009-05-13T03:20:51Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Tabbies are not girl cats gosh darn it! :mad: > > 😛 [I remember that thread](http://boardstest.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510997&highlight=tabby+girl)… ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/37 "2009-05-13T03:35:59Z")
Move over to a government job as a policy wonk, or some other lateral career move that will get you out of your current career path. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/38 "2009-05-13T04:03:48Z")
**Tabby** (I’m in a bit of a rush so apologies in advance for any typos). It’s early days yet - it will take a few years to hit your stride. Law school teaches you nothing except maybe how and where to find the answers. If you’re lucky you also learned a bit about writing and constructing an argument. So it might be just a case of you needing some time to get a feel for it all. On the other hand, some people just aren’t cut out for it. I’ve trained non-lawyers who were good and went on to become lawyers themselves, and I’ve trained lawyers who were hopeless and went on to getting the hell out of the legal profession. Honestly, it sounds like you have no motivation to learn the law. And here’s a key point - “learning” doesn’t mean what you (probably) think it means. My father was a judge and he taught me the most valuable lesson of all - after I’d finished reading a case he’d look me dead in the eye and say “did you _understand_ it? I mean _really_ understand it”. His point was that having read a case and absorbed the basic issues is NOT the same thing as really understanding it. Understanding it means being able to play with the core issues the same way that Beckham plays with a football. Understanding it means you can turn the issues on their heads, re-examine them from different standpoints, apply them to different settings. Understanding means you own it now, rather than feeling like it owns you. Can you take an in personam remedy and flip it to an in-rem remedy? It takes close reading, perhaps several times, and consultation with others. It takes spending your weekends thinking about how X applies to Y. For some, this level of comprehension just comes with time. Few people are naturally born with it, but if you want to do well, you need to know this. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/39 "2009-05-13T17:02:16Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > I think that’s part of the problem, actually.. the associate whom I work with, who is 1 year my senior, is exceptionally suited to legal work. Every file I work on with him, the gulf between me and him.. well. > > He’s really really nice, and helps me a lot more than I deserve, really, and I feel bad making him “do” more work because of me. Which feeds into this whole god I can’t do a single thing right mentality.. > > I guess I’m whinging again. 😃 But all your stories of your first year of practice are somewhat encouraging, thanks! [http://www.bizzia.com/slackermanager/find-mentor-how-to/](http://www.bizzia.com/slackermanager/find-mentor-how-to/) This site might help you organize your thoughts regarding what you need. I think “formal” vs. “informal” will have a lot to do with what you get out of the relationship. Just kind of a starting point. I think if you propose your desire for a formal mentor, your Helpful Dude might take it as a flattering invitation to really groom you for greatness. Or he might tell you no thanks. Either way, HR still might be able to help you find the perfect person to guide you through the maze. Good luck to you! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826/40 "2009-05-13T17:12:04Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > If you want to feel like you acomplished something, become some kind of engineer, . Unless you manage to stay away from giant corporations, what with outsourcing, aren’t engineers just as apt to find themselves managing, tracking, coordinating, and making out spreadsheets as lawyers, bankers, etc.? I know for sure it happens in IT, although that could be a function of a company’s culture as well. At my last job, the director of my particular division had reportedly said that she didn’t think any of our developers could do anything substantive–and we never got the chance to disprove it. I should have headed for the hills long before I did leave. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-im-just-not-cut-out-for-work/495826.md?page=3)