# Maybe post colonial African countries should not have handed over power so quickly. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796 "2009-12-18T21:29:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/61 "2009-12-21T07:48:46Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > So what? Despite all those horrors and atrocities, they still managed to keep a \*\*semblance \*\*of order and economic stability. What is the major difference then? Do you even know what the bolded word means? A “semblance” was all it was - a seeming, a facade. Meanwhile, you have simmering ethnic tensions throughout Europe, economic meltdown, a fucked-up environment, corruption (I mean, just look at Italy, FFS), open insurrection in the Balkans, ETA in Spain, bombs on the Tube…tell me again about the semblance of order, please. > [@](#): > > No _I_ said that Africa as a whole has had a poor record in the modern period, and even by your own admission above, it has. If that were _all_ you said, I wouldn’t be arguing with you. African countries performs poorly by any measure - we can all agree on this. But does Africa perform “_particularly_” worse than the rest of the world? Enough to warrant being put into the governmental equivalent of receivership? There’s the argument, at least in the OP. > [@](#): > > **Most** of those countries have also been unable to recover or stabilize any sector of their government or economies for any **meaningful** length of time. Bolded the weasel words for you. > [@](#): > > Climatic changes certainly play a large role, but a **competent** **government** can work around those problems. Really? Name one. It can’t be the US, 'cos the Dust Bowl, Western desalination and Katrina give the lie to that. Is it the UK? 'cos I’ve got some flooded bits of Yorkshire and a non-working Eurostar line that says different… > [@](#): > > That doesn’t excuse the current regimes from their responsibility to their peoples. That doesn’t excuse rampant cronyism and corruption. It doesn’t excuse abuse of military resources to fight old ethnic conflicts. It doesn’t excuse vast misuse of natural resources. You can, of course, quote where I’ve actually excused any of this? > [@](#): > > That is not the actions of a “slow starter” It is the actions of _non starter_. Only time will tell. Me, I’m willing to give it a little more than the 30 years you are, before I declare that some people are too incompetent to be granted self-determination. > [@](#): > > Instead of whining, why don’t we try to figure out HOW to get some stability, education, security, and competency into the mix? How about the oh-so-enlightened governments of the West either delivers _meaningful_ aid (along the lines of Peace Corps, now there’s a great idea), or else leaves Africa the fuck alone and sorts out their own warmongering, resource-pillaging civilizedier-than-thou messes first. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/62 "2009-12-21T08:02:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It can’t be the US, 'cos the Dust Bowl, Western **desalination** and Katrina give the lie to that. Sorry, meant **salination** there. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/63 "2009-12-21T08:11:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Belowjob2.0 > Quote: > Rindermann has found that the macro-social level cognitive competence is more important than economic liberty for the economic growth of nations (Rindermann, 2008a) and it is more important than wealth for the democratic development of countries (Rindermann, 2008b). And intelligence seems to be a sensible measure of development up to indicating failing societies. > > So Russians are markedly less intelligent than their neighbors in Europe and China? > > Chen wrote > > _If you look at the data from the ‘smart fraction’ paper, there top 5% average 118 (based on TIMSS & PISA data). That compares reasonably well with other European and Asian countries._ > > Belowjob2.0 wrote: > > So you completely missed the point? Rindermann didn’t say that cognitive competence guaranteed X level economic performance. It is a necessary, but not necessarily sufficient condition for macro-economic growth. He also didn’t say that economic liberty or economic policies made no difference. Now from the data above you can see that Russia’s ‘smart fraction’ or top 5% from the TIMSS & PISA data average about 118. So cognitive competence doesn’t appear to be their problem, but it may be a hindrance for countries like Ghana or Yemen. Note that Rindermann & co are agnostic on the causes of cognitive competence. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/64 "2009-12-21T09:36:06Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Leaving aside the inflammatory characterizations about me being racist and stupid, You use racist and stupid arguments, perhaps you should reflect on them a little more; don’t leave them aside too quickly. It’s never too late for self reflection. > [@](#): > > is it your position, then, that Zimbabwe’s farm productivity has not been negatively affected by the land reform efforts? No. > [@](#): > > Or is it that while Zimbabwe has failed, hey, a bunch of other places have had famines too, so Zimbabwe’s cannot be from incompetence? Again, no. My point was to laugh at your historically blind attempt to paint Zim as some sort of unique example of African incompetence (thus adding more “evidence” to your much touted “blacks iz teh dumb” hypothesis); when in fact it’s just another example of a government, with an agriculture based economy, engaging in damaging wholesale reformations that end up doing much harm. Except with Zim, unlike China/North Korea/Russia/USSR/etc, millions of people aren’t dead from famine. > [@](#): > > Aside from the fact that many of the famines you cite are from natural disturbances particularly in the days when those were harder to control, even if we assume that all of those were also due to incompetence, how does that mean Zimbabwe’s failure is not also due to incompetence? Are you now saying that “all those other times were an unavoidable mistake, Zim on the other hand is an example of African incompetence”. Your “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine is “African exceptionalism” at its goddamned worst. > [@](#): > > I have not seen any independent evaluations of the collapse of Zimbabwe farming which do not attribute it all or in part to land reforms and take-over by less-capable non-white farmers. The problem does not seem to be improving. Hmmm… I can only wonder where you are going with this train of thought?😕 > [@](#): > > I ask, therefore: yes… > [@](#): > > Why is it unreasonable to say there is no evidence that Africans are capable of running the Zimbabwe farms? Ha. You don’t stop do you? Its never turned off. You keep pushing the “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine. Here are your words exactly **“there is every reason to think that Africans don’t have the necessary knowledge or capability.”** There is no other way to take this then “teh blecks iz dumb.” You are not making some comment about a simple trainable skill set, “Africans can farm in large scale, but they have not been trained.” No, you said that they are friggin incapable! You get no assumption of good-will with me, pal. > [@](#): > > It’s just total coincidence that they took over and large-scale commercial farming collapsed? This is not an observation about intellectual capacity–it’s an observation about farming capability and governing competence. Oh its “not an observation about intellectual capacity”? You make every issue that deals with blacks/Africans about “intellectual capacity.” There is nothing else with you. In using your posting history and your exact words as a guide I have absolutely no faith that you are talking about simple trainable skills. If I’m wrong just say this for me: “Black Zimbabwians/Africans are perfectly capable of modern scale farming and self-governing multi-nation states. What I hamfistingly talk about about is that they didn’t get the correct training to be effective. Yea blacks!” If not, I’l chalk this up to your regular “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine. > [@](#): > > With respect to this comment of mine: > > (by **CP** ) : > “They (Africans” didn’t figure out modern commercial farming before the Europeans showed up" did you have an example other than > > (by **orcenio** ) : > “That is a just a stupid thing to say; both agriculture and animal domestication occurred throughout southern Africa which fit the largely feudal political systems of the region. “Modern” :rolleyes: A stupid comment as proof for another stupid comment.” ? What are you looking for? They were engaging in farming! That is my point. Your qualifier crap that “they weren’t modern enough” for your tastes is just that. Something irrelevant to fuel your “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine. > [@](#): > > If that was “modern agriculture” then perhaps that’s why we disagree on how successfully Zimbabwe has implemented their land reform efforts. The whole point of the collapse of Zimbabwe farming is that it has been attributed to an incompetent takeover of modern commercial farms. Weather and climate have always been a part of farming and often a part of famine, but this is not advanced by most as the primary cause of Zimbabwe’s collapse and I have seen no evidence that the land-reform farms are otherwise competently managed. If you have some, by all means post it. Famine happens everywhere is there is poorly planned land reform. Zim is not an exception nor is it an example of “African inferiority” I repeat, your “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine is old and gets more transparent with every use. > [@](#): > > The articles I read run more along these lines suggest that, at best, large-scale commercial farming is being replaced by smallholder farming (A1) with a relatively smaller capacity to produce beyond subsistence levels, and that A2 level commercial farming has had isolated “successes” at best. Here’s the friendliest way to put it I could find That is a good summary that points to bigger problems with how large scale farming is more productive then the small scale kind, despite the goal of land reform is to create more small scale farms. I’m quite surprized you are using this summary that doesn’t even hint at your “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine… > [@](#): > > It’s not too hard to read between the lines, look at the overall production success and use the term “failure” instead of “struggling” and “slow to respond.” Deferred success right around the corner is a nice way of saying “failure at present.” … I should have known you were going to add your own spin that hints to “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/65 "2009-12-21T09:38:59Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I’d even go a war further back than that. Desperate for manpower to keep feeding into the meat grinder that was WW1, Britain and France raised hundreds of thousands of troops from their colonies in Africa, India and Asia and for the first time used them not in some far flung part of the empire, but in Europe. Something was clearly going amiss when the colonizers were asking the colonized to help save them by fighting in France, and it didn’t go unnoticed. If you were to tell someone from Victorian era England that India would have 140,000 soldiers fighting in France and another 700,000 in the Mediterranean, or tell a Frenchman from the same era that 200,000 Senegalais would be fighting for them on France soil they’d look at you like you’d gone mad. An excellent point, I remember being surprized with this fact a few months ago; I had no idea how many colonial troops were used in these wars. [So, I made a thread about it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=513229) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/66 "2009-12-21T10:03:41Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Is the reason “brain drain”? I mean, Afrikans who obtained university degrees had no incentive to stay-so the emigrated to Europe and the USA. Think about it-you have a Ph.D. in chemistry-what do you do? Work as a clerk? > I think Africa’s problems are long term-and the drain of educated people is a big part of their problems. I’m a type of person who doesn’t mind “brain drain.” In fact I would encourage it. Crazy, eh? Not really… I think that it’s a person’s duty to move to an area where he can be most productive. Educated people will always move from areas of poverty to rich lands where they can make more money, be productive, be happy and send [remittances](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance). [Books have](http://allafrica.com/stories/200811111001.html) [been written](http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2007/06/gupta.htm) [on the subject](http://whiteafrican.com/2008/02/08/the-20-billion-african-remittance-market/) of [African remittances](http://blogs.worldbank.org/africacan/how-will-the-financial-crisis-affect-remittances-to-africa). Remittances are a great source of cash inflow to a poor country’s local economy. By integrating Africa’s economic refugees, developed countries are bringing Africa into the world economy. Stopping educated Africans from making money elsewhere is a bad idea, it would only work to stop the next [“Mo” Ibrahim](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo_Ibrahim) or [Mohammed Al Amoudi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Al_Amoudi) from being formed. These are people who return to the land of their birth and make further economic investments. What needs to be done is to enable Africans (not just the formally educated ones) to be integrated into the world market economy. This is difficult and not a straightforward process as most Africans are live in rural areas and are traditional substance farmers. However, it is not impossible and is currently happening in all/most urban areas in most/all African countries. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/67 "2009-12-21T10:27:28Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If the colonial governments of Europe had been more humane and concerned about locals and built up more infustructure and educated the locals than the colonials would be less likely to break away and the world would be closer to unification. But even than decolonization has happened too fast and even South Africa has due to AIDS has it’s life-span decline to the mid 40s. And now the President of South Africa is a polygamist, anti-white, communist Robert Mugabe-wannabe who acts like a tribal chieftain rather than the President of a Westernized, civilized state. Not being racist here (for instance I think Nelson Mandela is a great man) Polygamist is fair, but the rest sound inflammatory; how can he be called an anti-white, communist Robert Mugabe-wannabe? He has his faults, but what did he do to earn THAT title. Zuma doesn’t even sound as friendly to Mugabe as Mbeki was. Mbeki didn’t say one word against Mugabe even during the worst of the election violence. Zuma inherited this Mugabe problem from Mbeki and has to act in a way that pleases a lot of pissed off (and slightly xenophobic) South Africans who don’t want any more Zim refugees. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/68 "2009-12-21T10:43:53Z")
[QUOTE=Chen019;11909343Rindermann has found that the macro-social level cognitive competence is more important than economic liberty for the economic growth of nations (Rindermann, 2008a) and it is more important than wealth for the democratic development of countries (Rindermann, 2008b). And intelligence seems to be a sensible measure of development up to indicating failing societies.[/QUOTE] Of course! :smack: Why bother looking at real political/economic choices or when you have half baked voodoo IQ tests and disgraced eugenicists. Quit dominating every Africa related topic with this utter tripe! This is a perverse obsession and it smothers all other rational discussion. It is quite clear that some people do not want to talk about real politics or historical developments and only wish to use these topics to advance fringe racist theorys. **Chen019** have you made a single post on this MB other then “teh blecks iz dumb?” Is it normal that any black/Africa themed thread would attract people who have a racist agenda to promote? That everything they post is linked to “blecks iz dumb?” ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/69 "2009-12-21T11:06:27Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I suppose you’d have to over look the +10 million death count (half of all Congolese at the time) during the Leopold years to think that life is worst now. Leopold was Europe’s version of Mao/Stalin without even the “well intentions.” The Congo Free State was such a mess that even other Imperialist nations stepped in and said “Enough!” Which means it was pretty bad. But the Belgian Congo wasn’t as bad (there were serious calls to integrate the Congo as a full part of Belgium), and since independence The Congo has been through the Congo Crisis (1960-1965, establishing Mobutu Sese Seko as El Presidente), the First Congo War (1996-1997, deposing El Presidente Seko), and the Second Congo war, all of which killed over 10,000,000 people combined. So yeah, the Congo was a better place under Belgian rule, at least from that point of view. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/70 "2009-12-21T11:17:03Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The Congo Free State was such a mess that even other Imperialist nations stepped in and said “Enough!” Which means it was pretty bad. > > But the Belgian Congo wasn’t as bad (there were serious calls to integrate the Congo as a full part of Belgium), and since independence The Congo has been through the Congo Crisis (1960-1965, establishing Mobutu Sese Seko as El Presidente), the First Congo War (1996-1997, deposing El Presidente Seko), and the Second Congo war, all of which killed over 10,000,000 people combined. So yeah, the Congo was a better place under Belgian rule, at least from that point of view. Woah, over 10,000,000 people combined in for the first and second wars? I’m gonna need a cite for that. Wiki has [a much](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Congo_War) [lower](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War)figure. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/71 "2009-12-21T11:41:09Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Woah, over 10,000,000 people combined in for the first and second wars? I’m gonna need a cite for that. Wiki has [a much](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Congo_War) [lower](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War)figure. Wiki says (in the first paragraph) that the Second Congo War and its aftermath killed over 5.4 million people. I may have misread and accidentally combined the 5.4 million figure with the 3.9 million people given in the same article, but even taking 5.4 million and adding 300,000 to that, you’re still looking at damn near 6 million people killed in those wars, without getting into all the malnutrition and “generally being a crappy third world hell-hole” deaths. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/72 "2009-12-21T12:41:53Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Wiki says (in the first paragraph) that the Second Congo War and its aftermath killed over 5.4 million people. I may have misread and accidentally combined the 5.4 million figure with the 3.9 million people given in the same article, but even taking 5.4 million and adding 300,000 to that, you’re still looking at damn near 6 million people killed in those wars, without getting into all the malnutrition and “generally being a crappy third world hell-hole” deaths. Very true, 5.4-6 million is a lot, but (from the wiki citiation) that does include indirect malaria, diarrhoea, pneumonia and malnutrition deaths. We don’t have the number of such deaths during the post-Leopold (Belgian Congo) years for a comparison. Nor can I find any quantifiable numbers of health related deaths from that era. Either way, if we are to assume that the Belgian Congo era was completely clean, the pre-independence era was still worst then the post-independence era. **Side note** : I really don’t know how one can hold a belief that countries shouldn’t be allowed to evolve into their own self-made, political systems and nations. Maybe countries like Congo/Sudan/etc will go the Europe route and split along historical ethnically defined regions, maybe they’ll evolve into a centralized democracies, maybe both, maybe neither. Either way these choices must be made by the locals who have a vested interest in what happens to them. Foreign colonial government retard this development; they cut “the people” out of this fundamental equation. No matter how fantastic foreign colonial governments might seem to you, they insure that no solution will ever be attained. If you believe that local people deserve a role in their own governments (no authoritative states) then you can’t support foreigners ruling colonies. It’s a non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/73 "2009-12-21T13:34:51Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > You use racist and stupid arguments, perhaps you should reflect on them a little more; don’t leave them aside too quickly. It’s never too late for self reflection.No.Again, no. > > My point was to laugh at your historically blind attempt to paint Zim as some sort of unique example of African incompetence (thus adding more “evidence” to your much touted “blacks iz teh dumb” hypothesis); when in fact it’s just another example of a government, with an agriculture based economy, engaging in damaging wholesale reformations that end up doing much harm. Except with Zim, unlike China/North Korea/Russia/USSR/etc, millions of people aren’t dead from famine. Do not use quotes after referencing me without making clear that you are not quoting me. I object to the poor grammar and silliness of “blacks iz teh dumb” and I object to its mischaracterization of my position. I have not argued that Zimbabwe land reforms are unique as an example of government incompetence. And I agree that other socialist/dictatorial/central planning regimes have had spectacular failures also. > [@orcenio](#): > > Are you now saying that “all those other times were an unavoidable mistake, Zim on the other hand is an example of African incompetence”. Your “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine is “African exceptionalism” at its goddamned worst. The uniquenss of “African incompetence” lies in the breadth of its failures and relative lack of even niche successes. Many other countries you reference (North Korea is an example) have horrible failed social policy, total isolation, and near-starvation conditions at times. Yet they have developed a nuclear capabilitiy. What you would like to advance as an example of African-driven success on the world stage? > [@orcenio](#): > > yes…Ha. You don’t stop do you? Its never turned off. You keep pushing the “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine. Here are your words exactly **“there is every reason to think that Africans don’t have the necessary knowledge or capability.”** There is no other way to take this then “teh blecks iz dumb.” You are not making some comment about a simple trainable skill set, “Africans can farm in large scale, but they have not been trained.” No, you said that they are friggin incapable! You get no assumption of good-will with me, pal.Oh its “not an observation about intellectual capacity”? You make every issue that deals with blacks/Africans about “intellectual capacity.” There is nothing else with you. > > In using your posting history and your exact words as a guide I have absolutely no faith that you are talking about simple trainable skills. If I’m wrong just say this for me: “Black Zimbabwians/Africans are perfectly capable of modern scale farming and self-governing multi-nation states. What I hamfistingly talk about about is that they didn’t get the correct training to be effective. Yea blacks!” There is no a priori reason to assume capability until it is proven somewhere, somehow. To date neither the government of Zimbabwe nor the actual management of what were previously successful large-scale commercial farms have proven anything but incapability and incompetence. I understand it is your position that this is simply poor training. That is not my position. My position is that the take-over of these farms has proved to be a disaster. My position is that even the idea that they should be taken over by the unskilled and incompetent is beyond stupid, with predictable results. My position is that, if black Africans want to prove their only drawback is poor training, the approach should be to get trained. Until that happens, I will reserve any final judgment about intellectual capability. I have often said not only will I admit to being wrong about capacity differences at a group level–I hope that I am wrong. But I have not seen any convincing evidence to date that black African countries can compete on par with the western world. I await your suggestions about where I should look for those successes. Outside of SA, where the westernized infrastructure was largely initiated and led by whites, I don’t see many black African innovations, patents or even niche successes that are competetive with peers (countries with their own severe internal problems) such as Ukraine, China or India. > [@orcenio](#): > > If not, I’l chalk this up to your regular “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine. > What are you looking for? They were engaging in farming! That is my point. Your qualifier crap that “they weren’t modern enough” for your tastes is just that. Something irrelevant to fuel your “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine. Not “farming.” The topic at hand was large-scale commercial farming, which was brought to Africa by outsiders. You have pretended that, because there was small scale subsistence farming before Europeans came to Africa, Europeans are not responsible for bringing large-scale commercial farming to Africa. This is silly. > [@orcenio](#): > > Famine happens everywhere is there is poorly planned land reform. Zim is not an exception nor is it an example of “African inferiority” I repeat, your “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine is old and gets more transparent with every use. I have deliberate avoided that inflammatory phrase and yet you put it in quotes. Stop doing that. In the discussion at hand I have blamed incompetence and said that so far the evidence shows the new farmers are incapable. That’s obvious. I have not generalized an “African inferiority.” It is my position that every population has strengths and weakness and that populations do vary by genetically-driven potential for skillsets. I remain open to being disavowed of this position. It is inaccurate to characterize disparate abilities as “inferior” except within a very narrow frame of reference, and for that reason I avoid applying it so broadly. Certainly the black Africans who took over the Zimbabwe farms have done an inferior job of running them. > [@orcenio](#): > > That is a good summary that points to bigger problems with how large scale farming is more productive then the small scale kind, despite the goal of land reform is to create more small scale farms. I’m quite surprized you are using this summary that doesn’t even hint at your “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” routine… > … I should have known you were going to add your own spin that hints to “Everything can be linked to African inferiority” I do not know why you would be surprised. Unlike the tone of your posts here, I am uninterested in driving an agenda. I am interested in why the world is the way it is and I am interested in which solutions work and which do not. I am unconcerned with labels (“racist” for instance) because they do not advance science nor does the application of a label carry any substance to the weight of an argument. I will not belabor posting with you, especially using the tedious point by point method; I do not have time for it. Let me leave you with a simple question for you that will help fight my ignorance: In the entire region of sub-saharan Africa, can you give me a specific example of something you would like to advance as black-driven innovation or success? Examples of parallels in other countries might be India’s IT outsourcing; China’s space program; North Korea’s nuclear efforts and so on. I am genuinely interested in learning examples to ensure that I present a more balanced view. You have objected to my characterization of the Zimbabwe failure. \*\*Please give me an alternative and specific example to use as an opposite-case–perhaps something where training was sufficient and therefore success was achieved. \*\* Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/74 "2009-12-21T14:39:18Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Do not use quotes after referencing me without making clear that you are not quoting me. To make it clear for you, I will use the quote tag to directly quote you and the quotation marks are, at best, paraphrasing. > [@](#): > > I object to the poor grammar and silliness of “blacks iz teh dumb” and I object to its mischaracterization of my position. Objection noted and dismissed. > [@](#): > > I have not argued that Zimbabwe land reforms are unique as an example of government incompetence. And I agree that other socialist/dictatorial/central planning regimes have had spectacular failures also. Zim = Black failure = proof of black incompetence = Africans are retards. It is nothing more complicated then that. You never have any other point, in any other thread. Ever. Play dumb all you want, everyone knows that you hijack Africa/black related threads and try to dominate them with your pet “hypothesis.” > [@](#): > > The uniquenss of “African incompetence” lies in the breadth of its failures and relative lack of even niche successes. lol, it just doesn’t stop, doesn’t it? “Always be closing”, eh? Even if it blows your fig leaf! > [@](#): > > Many other countries you reference (North Korea is an example) have horrible failed social policy, total isolation, and near-starvation conditions at times. Yet they have developed a nuclear capabilitiy. What you would like to advance as an example of African-driven success on the world stage? So THAT is your proof of NK intelligence and thus “African incompetence”? I wonder if I should even try to explain the complex, geopolitical and historical reasons that makes NK a nuclear weapons shed opposed to most African countries that see nukes as far more politically damaging and less functionally useful opposed to the legally acceptable small armaments? You would just dance a little jig and hand wave it? Probably, as it doesn’t mesh with your “African exceptionalism” and “blecks iz dumb” hypothesis it must be ignored and marginalized. > [@](#): > > There is no a priori reason to assume capability until it is proven somewhere, somehow. To date neither the government of Zimbabwe nor the actual management of what were previously successful large-scale commercial farms have proven anything but incapability and incompetence. I understand it is your position that this is simply poor training. That is not my position. What a big surprize! > [@](#): > > My position is that the take-over of these farms has proved to be a disaster. My position is that even the idea that they should be taken over by the unskilled and incompetent is beyond stupid, with predictable results. My position is that, if black Africans want to prove their only drawback is poor training, the approach should be to get trained. Until that happens, I will reserve any final judgment about intellectual capability. Then swallow it, when people call you out on your stupid, idiotic, bigotedly asinine beliefs. Don’t offer fake protests, disingenuous remarks, and misleading statements. Swallow it! > [@](#): > > I have often said not […snipped for an overuse of bull…] Thank you. No, no, Thank YOU. You hijack all threads that deals with blacks/Africans with your perverted “hypothesis” and when people respond to you, you out right refuse to accept all logic that clashes with your “blecks iz dumb” hypothesis. “I find this logic unconvincing” is all you reply, then you post massive assertions on how you are right. You are not interested in knowledge, you are only interested in using any thread as a podium to preach your asinine “blecks iz dumb” hypothesis. Why should anybody entertain you? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/75 "2009-12-21T15:23:39Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > In the entire region of sub-saharan Africa, can you give me a specific example of something you would like to advance as black-driven innovation or success? Examples of parallels in other countries might be India’s IT outsourcing; China’s space program; North Korea’s nuclear efforts and so on. I don’t suppose “spawning the human race” is going to cut it for you, is it?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/76 "2009-12-21T16:13:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t suppose “spawning the human race” is going to cut it for you, is it?:rolleyes: Love it. Ok, you got me on that, and it’s an excellent zinger. But have you done anything for us lately? 😉 Seriously, **Mr D and orcenio** , I get it that in your book I’m a racist for making the comments I have about Africa’s lack of successes and proposing that one possibility is a lack of the skillset required to produce them, and further proposing that skillsets reflect an average gene frequency distribution. Help me out here, though. Besides spawning the human race 200,000 years ago (thank you for that, btw), are there specific successes which I could use to disavow me of my position that there is no compelling evidence to date which bolsters your position that black Africans are equally capable to other modern populations? If there aren’t, that does not by itself mean that, given appropriate circumstance, they cannot become equally capable. But surely it does mean that there is no evidence of that to date, and therefore a position that there may be more at work than circumstance is not a priori outrageous (except in the social sense, where any such discussions are taboo). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/77 "2009-12-21T16:45:10Z")
What do you want here? Like I said many times, it’s a little early in the post-independence period to be looking for successes of the kind you’re wanting. Why not give African countries the 100+ years European and American countries have had to get their shit together, before declaring their failure to produce any Nobel Physicists? My point has always just been that Africa is not \*uniquely \*fucked up, and to ignore the other fucked-up regions of the world while picking on Africa is not going to dissuade anyone that you don’t have an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/78 "2009-12-21T16:55:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A combination of several factors: colonial past, communism in the 70s/80s, capitalism now (esp. the US, French and Chinese going after primary resources at the expense of locals), the twin evils of Christianity and Islam . . . You could write what I know about all that on a postage stamp. > [@](#): > > . . . generally denuded soils and shitty climates. But lots of minerals. Certtainly more resources than, say, Japan. (Natural resources: Fish.) > [@](#): > > Most of Africa straddles the equator and tropics and is\* not\* the ideal place for people to live. And it’s the birthplace of our species, which means lots of our species’s parasitic diseases. > [@](#): > > _BUT_ Africa isn’t, in my opinion, doing worse than a lot of other places in Asia and South America. I’d definitely rather live in South Africa than China, or Burma, or Russia, or Colombia, or India. The global recession has hit South Africa very lightly, for instance. South Africa may be ok, but Africa as a whole looks terrible, at least from the outside. If you [look at numbers](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/rankorderguide.html) like infant mortality or per capta GDP, the worst countries are almost all in Africa. Worse than Haiti, where a few years ago, people were literally too poor to eat dirt. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/79 "2009-12-21T16:55:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Most of the European colonial powers had decades to prepare their colonies for independance if that was their desire. So it appears lack of desire rather than lack of time was the issue. And if they hadn’t done any preparation for independance in the previous seventy years, why should they be expected to do anything if they had been given ten more years? So if the Europeans were never going to work on independance the only alternative was for them to get out of the way and allow the Africans to work it out for themselves. This seems like the key point to me. Theoretically, government by un-self-interested angels would be preferable to government by mere humans, but there’s limited evidence that the colonial powers were the former. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/80 "2009-12-21T17:12:43Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > But lots of minerals. Certtainly more resources than, say, Japan. (Natural resources: Fish.) How’s that a fair comparison? Why not compare Africa to all of Asia. Or Japan to, say, Malawi? Incidentally, Malawi’s gone from suffering famine as bad as Zimbabwe’s to being a net food exporter in the last few years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796.md?page=5)