# Maybe post colonial African countries should not have handed over power so quickly. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796 "2009-12-18T21:29:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/81 "2009-12-21T17:30:25Z")
[Botswana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botswana) has been stunningly successful for a landlocked, underpopulated, largely desert, initially almost completely uneducated backwater. _Since independence, Botswana has had one of the fastest growth rates in per capita income in the world. Botswana has transformed itself from one of the poorest countries in the world to a middle-income country. By one estimate, it has the fourth highest gross national income at purchasing power parity in Africa, giving it a standard of living around that of Mexico and Turkey._ While Mexico and Turkey are hardly the gold standards of achievement in the world, it’s also nothing to sneeze at, considering just where Botswana started in 1966. It is also impressive consaidering AIDS has had a HUGE impact on the country, cutting life expectancy in half relative to the pre-AIDS period ( in the early 80’s, it was higher than South Africa under Apartheid ). Yet even with that devastating burden, a disaster of a magnitude unimagined in the developed west, the [economy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Botswana) continues to grow. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/82 "2009-12-21T20:19:57Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > snip. > Of course it would have. The problem isn’t about race, mental capacity or any other _biological_ issue. It is about handing over governmental control and weapons to a bunch of people who have little education and come from a cultural background of tribal alliances and feuding. We then expect those people to become first-world standard diplomats and officials overnight and build, operate, and maintain an infrastructure they have no cultural history of simply because they own the land now. They cannot and will not go back to pre-colonial standards, nor can they generate those standards themselves due to the aforementioned issues. So you get left with what we have. I think you hit the nail on the head. If you were to put a bunch of uneducated white rednecks, with little to no understanding of how modern economics, public works and bureaucratic institutions are supposed to work, in charge of their own country - well, if you’ve seen _Idiocracy_, you got a glimpse of what you’d end up with. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/83 "2009-12-21T20:43:51Z")
Orcenio, You seem to be committing the moralist fallacy. So you don’t like Chief Pedant’s hypothesis - that doesn’t make it incorrect. You should read David Friedman’s piece about how Christian creationists oppose evolution, but some who claim to believe in evolution - oppose its implications: > [@](#): > > The reasons to expect differences among racial groups as conventionally defined are weaker, since males of all races play the same role in reproduction, as do females of all races. But we know that members of such groups differ in the distribution of observable physical characteristics–that, after all, is the main way we recognize them. That is pretty strong evidence that their ancestors adapted to at least somewhat different environments. > > There is no a priori reason to suppose that the optimal physical characteristics were different in those different environments but the optimal mental characteristics were the same. And yet, when differing outcomes by racial groups are observed, it is assumed without discussion that they must be entirely due to differential treatment by race. That might turn out to be true, but there is no good reason to expect it. Here again, anyone who argues the opposite is likely to find himself the target of ferocious attacks, mainly from people on the left. [Ideas: Who is Against Evolution?](http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2008/08/who-is-against-evolution.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/84 "2009-12-21T23:18:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What do you want here? Like I said many times, it’s a little early in the post-independence period to be looking for successes of the kind you’re wanting. Why not give African countries the 100+ years European and American countries have had to get their shit together, before declaring their failure to produce any Nobel Physicists? > > My point has always just been that Africa is not \*uniquely \*fucked up, and to ignore the other fucked-up regions of the world while picking on Africa is not going to dissuade anyone that you don’t have an agenda. Well, Africa has been around as long as anywhere else, but fair enough. I do note that any number of other countries have wonderful niche success stories despite devastating internal circumstance in recent history. And the success I am asking for is not success as a nation–it’s simply some niche successes as proof cases for your point that the raw talent is there. For what it’s worth, like many individuals blessed by accident of birth, I consider it my personal, individual responsibility to reach out and help where I can. As I have said elsewhere, being born to a particular skillset and circumstance is not an accomplishment of any kind, and the obligation of every member of the human family is to function as a member of a family. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/85 "2009-12-21T23:23:32Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Orcenio, > > You seem to be committing the moralist fallacy. So you don’t like Chief Pedant’s hypothesis - that doesn’t make it incorrect. > > You should read David Friedman’s piece about how Christian creationists oppose evolution, but some who claim to believe in evolution - oppose its implications: > > [Ideas: Who is Against Evolution?](http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2008/08/who-is-against-evolution.html) Orcenio has demonstrated repeatedly that Chief Pedant’s claims, and yours, are counterfactual, and unscientific. It’s not a question of disliking the claims. It’s that the claims are demonstrably false. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/86 "2009-12-22T00:05:53Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Orcenio, > > You seem to be committing the moralist fallacy. So you don’t like Chief Pedant’s hypothesis - that doesn’t make it incorrect. > > You should read David Friedman’s piece about how Christian creationists oppose evolution, but some who claim to believe in evolution - oppose its implications: > > [Ideas: Who is Against Evolution?](http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2008/08/who-is-against-evolution.html) You seem to be committing the “wild-ass” fallacy -where you believe any wild-ass racist theory that spouts “Blecks iz teh dumb” regardless of appropriateness (claiming “genetic answers” to easily understandable/answerable socio/political/economic/historical questions) or accuracy (lack of any shred of said “genetic evidence” beyond your own racist ramblings). Add that to your “testify” fallacy -where you must invade any/all Africa related threads to actively preach and share said race theory. This is basically done to dominate all available discussions and crowd out any chance of real educational learning for the rest of the posters. Couple these with a huge dollop of “conspiracy” fallacy -That the cross-discipline main stream scientists who rejected said wild-ass racist theory, are somehow corrupted/blind/mislead/left-wing/PC/etc. and in \*finale \*“blog” fallacy -where you put a sickening high level of faith into random bloggers then those said scientists (the bloggers are the “real experts”). hmmmmm… I believe we were here before? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/87 "2009-12-22T00:27:02Z")
Orcenio, What do you disagree with: 1. There are readily identifiable clusters of points, corresponding to traditional continental ethnic groups: Europeans, Africans, Asians, Native Americans, etc. (See, for example, Risch et al., Am. J. Hum. Genet. 76:268–275, 2005). 2. There is variation in frequency distribution is in genes that that influence superficial traits. 3. There may be variation in frequency of genes that affect athletic abilities? 4. There may be variation in frequency of genes that affect cognitive abilities? Recent research suggests that 7% or more of all our genes are mutant versions that replaced earlier variants through natural selection over the last tens of thousands of years. There was little gene flow between continental clusters (“races”) during that period, so there is circumstantial evidence for group differences beyond the already established ones (superficial appearance, disease resistance). For example, you see new versions of SLC6A4, a serotonin transporter, in Europeans and Asians. There’s a new version of a gene (DAB1) that shapes the development of the layers of the cerebral cortex in east Asia. There is no strong evidence yet for specific gene variants (alleles) that lead to group differences (differences between clusters) in behavior or intelligence, but progress on the genomic side of this question will be rapid in coming years, as the price to sequence a genome is dropping at an exponential rate. [http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030090](http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030090) [http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%](http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%25) ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/88 "2009-12-22T00:55:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How’s that a fair comparison? Why not compare Africa to all of Asia. Or Japan to, say, Malawi? Because I had to look up Malawi just now to find out where it is. (At least I knew it was a country, and not a tropical flower or the latest iPod. Yay, me!) Let’s see. Japan: Infant mortality 3‰, Life expectancy 89, GDP per capita $34,000, Average child goes to school for 15 years, state not ruled by dangerous maniacs. Malawi: Infant mortality 89‰, Life expectancy 43.8, GDP per capita $800, Average child goes to school for 9 years, state not ruled by dangerous maniacs. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, Malawi’s gone from suffering famine as bad as Zimbabwe’s to being a net food exporter in the last few years. Good for Malawi. I don’t notice things like that with a casual glance from 10,000 km away. But if African countries don’t suck, why do they so _look_ like they suck? Worse than _Haiti?_\* \*I think “because blacks are dumb” is on a par with “because of evil thought rays from a cloaked Romulan warbird,” BTW. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/89 "2009-12-22T02:07:35Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Good for Malawi. I don’t notice things like that with a casual glance from 10,000 km away. But if African countries don’t suck, why do they so _look_ like they suck? Worse than _Haiti?_\* The influence of conservative interests in mainstream news aside…because it takes something really unusual to get a story on CNN, and that something is most often a massacre or coup of some sort? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/90 "2009-12-22T02:30:19Z")
> [@](#): > > The influence of conservative interests in mainstream news aside…because it takes something really unusual to get a story on CNN, and that something is most often a massacre or coup of some sort? You don’t need to read mainstream news. According to Amnesty International, Zimbabwe does not figure in the top 10 of African countries for what it calls “horrendous” human rights abuses; it comes instead towards the top of the second division for unlawful detentions, beatings, torture and executions. According to Amnesty, there are at least 24 other African countries in which, like Zimbabwe, freedom of expression simply does not exist and there are none at all where it is entirely free and untrammelled. You could also look at Interpol crime stats. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/91 "2009-12-22T02:41:47Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > You don’t need to read mainstream news. According to Amnesty International, Zimbabwe does not figure in the top 10 of African countries for what it calls “horrendous” human rights abuses; it comes instead towards the top of the second division for unlawful detentions, beatings, torture and executions. According to Amnesty, there are at least 24 other African countries in which, like Zimbabwe, freedom of expression simply does not exist and there are none at all where it is entirely free and untrammelled. > > You could also look at Interpol crime stats. And? I think I answered **coffeecat** ’s query satisfactorily, but what is your point? Assuming this information is true (and I’m not doubting you, but a cite would be nice), so what? What does this prove? Are you then going to conduct an unpaired t-test and assign “freedom scores” to various countries? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/92 "2009-12-22T03:23:11Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Orcenio has demonstrated repeatedly that Chief Pedant’s claims, and yours, are counterfactual, and unscientific. It’s not a question of disliking the claims. It’s that the claims are demonstrably false. Whoops; perhaps I missed something. **CP** claimed there was no evidence that black Africa has produced successful programs or innovations or even niche solutions on par with examples such as Ukrainian rocketry, Indian IT outsourcing, N Korean nuclear programs as a way of demonstrating that the talent is there. In other words, no evidence backing up the claim of Orcenio that black Africans are equally capable. As I mentioned earlier, this does not mean the talent does not exist, but it certainly gives credence to my position that there is no evidence to date of such talent. Would you be so kind as to either personally advance some examples, or point me to wherever it is that **Orcenio, MrDibble** or anyone else has posted them? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/93 "2009-12-22T03:24:14Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Orcenio, > > What do you disagree with: > > 1. There are readily identifiable clusters of points, corresponding to traditional continental ethnic groups: Europeans, Africans, Asians, Native Americans, etc. (See, for example, Risch et al., Am. J. Hum. Genet. 76:268–275, 2005). Now why would I disagree with such a simple-minded characterization of human genetic diversity? :rolleyes: You know, I have a link for you. A few years ago _Nature Genetics_ had an entire spread dedicated to “[Genetics for the Human Race](http://www.nature.com/index.html?file=/ng/journal/v36/n11s/index.html)”. There are two papers I would like to especially encourage you to read, and read well. The first is “[Implications of biogeography of human populations for ‘race’ and medicine](http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1438.html)” > [@](#): > > In this review, we focus on the biogeographical distribution of genetic variation and address whether or not populations cluster according to the popular concept of ‘race’. **We show that racial classifications are inadequate descriptors of the distribution of genetic variation in our species.** Although populations do cluster by broad geographic regions, which generally correspond to socially recognized races, the distribution of genetic variation is quasicontinuous in clinal patterns related to geography. The broad global pattern reflects the accumulation of genetic drift associated with a recent African origin of modern humans, followed by expansion out of Africa and across the rest of the globe. Because disease genes may be geographically restricted due to mutation, genetic drift, migration and natural selection, knowledge of individual ancestry will be important for biomedical studies. Identifiers based on race will often be insufficient. This is truly an interesting paper. Read it. Learn it. Accept it. If not, **then at the very least you must learn to stop misrepresenting the view of mainstream scientists/geneticists** , here is a direct quote from the [Human Genome Project](http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml) > [@](#): > > DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other. Indeed, it has been proven that there is more genetic variation within races than exists between them. The second paper I have for you is by **the same man you** cited above: Neil Risch. His paper is called “[Assessing genetic contributions to phenotypic differences among ‘racial’ and ‘ethnic’ groups](http://www.nature.com/index.html?file=/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1456.html).” > [@](#): > > Current understanding of the contribution of genes to variation in most complex traits is limited,\*\* however. Under these circumstances, assumptions about genetic contributions to group differences are unfounded.\*\* As you can see Risch actively condemns your wild-ass, shrill, one-note, “blecks iz dumb,” voodoo, blog-based claims/statements. Read on, he even starts to advocate action against such claims > [@](#): > > **there is a need for stringent criteria for drawing conclusions regarding the contribution of genes to between-group differences**. Generalizations and assumptions are unwarranted and may exacerbate group disparities. We therefore advocate standards for statements regarding genetic contributions to between-group differences. [QUOTE=Chen019] 2. There is variation in frequency distribution is in genes that that influence superficial traits. [/quote] Read Risch > [@](#): > > 1. There may be variation in frequency of genes that affect athletic abilities? Wild-ass claim #1 > [@](#): > > 1. There may be variation in frequency of genes that affect cognitive abilities? Wild-ass claim #2 > [@](#): > > Recent research suggests that 7% or more of all our genes are mutant versions that replaced earlier variants through natural selection over the last tens of thousands of years. There was little gene flow between continental clusters (“races”) during that period, so there is circumstantial evidence for group differences beyond the already established ones (superficial appearance, disease resistance). Wild-ass claim #3 for “circumstantial evidence for group differences.” Jeez, literally “meh, we could find SOMETHING;” find it, then start making wild-ass claims to it’s real properties like Lahn did (and hope you don’t fail at your wild-ass interpretation like he did). > [@](#): > > For example, you see new versions of SLC6A4, a serotonin transporter, in Europeans and Asians. There’s a new version of a gene (DAB1) that shapes the development of the layers of the cerebral cortex in east Asia. **There is no strong evidence yet for specific gene variants (alleles) that lead to group differences (differences between clusters) in behavior or intelligence**, but progress on the genomic side of this question will be rapid in coming years, as the price to sequence a genome is dropping at an exponential rate. About time you said 1 iota of truth, but your stupid chicken littlism that follows it hardly makes it worth anything… There is no doubt in my mind that I have wasted my time in responding to a bunch of “race realists.” Please prove me wrong, drop this “race realism” crap and start honestly participating in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/94 "2009-12-22T03:32:48Z")
> [@](#): > > And? I think I answered coffeecat’s query satisfactorily, but what is your point? Assuming this information is true (and I’m not doubting you, but a cite would be nice), so what? What does this prove? Are you then going to conduct an unpaired t-test and assign “freedom scores” to various countries? I thought your point was that some countries may appear worse than they really are because of biased sensationalist news coverage? That may be true to some extent, but you can quickly confirm whether this is the case or not from World Bank data on poverty rates or Interpol on crime rates. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/95 "2009-12-22T06:52:01Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Would you be so kind as to either personally advance some examples, or point me to wherever it is that **Orcenio, MrDibble** or anyone else has posted them? I thought I had given you an excellent example with Botswana. Or are you looking for something super-specific like Finland dominating the rather rarefied Icebreaker industry? If so I think that is a pretty poor indicator of anything, other than a historical, largely accidental association. 40 years of sustained economic growth in the very definition of a backwater is pretty darn impressive to me. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/96 "2009-12-22T08:46:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What do you want here? Like I said many times, it’s a little early in the post-independence period to be looking for successes of the kind you’re wanting. Why not give African countries the 100+ years European and American countries have had to get their shit together, before declaring their failure to produce any Nobel Physicists? Ethiopia was never colonised and never really in the “Sphere of Influence” of any of the major Colonial powers and the country is still a byword for “Famine, disease, and incredible poverty”. If you take China 100-150 years ago, the place was a mess and in real danger of suffering the same fate as Africa (ie being divvied up amongst the European nations). Yet the Chinese fought a massive combined Civil War _and_ World War in the early-mid 20th century, got their shit together, and now they produce most of the planet’s manufactured goods and are a major global power. The same is true of India 60 years after Independence. But there are no sub-saharan African nations with any real international clout anymore; even South Africa isn’t really a global player in anything substantial nowadays besides diamonds (and there’s plenty of those coming from Canada, Russia, and elsewhere in Africa nowadays), Human Rights (which is no trifling matter, I’m sure we all agree), and sports, IMHO. There is, in short, something very wrong with Sub-Saharan Africa and it can’t all be blamed on “Colonialism” or “European Interference”. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/97 "2009-12-22T09:27:33Z")
Do you think China and India would have made it so quickly if Mao and Ghandi had been blown up in mysterious airplane accidents or stuffed in a CIA car trunk? When you kill, jail, pay-off and discredit a country’s leaders, it tends to make it difficult for them to find the kind of leadership they need to modernize quickly. Note that there are plenty of Chinese people who, if they were alive, would raise their eyebrows at the idea that China’s recent history has been a huge success story. And there are plenty of places in India that make your average African village look like Beverly Hills. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/98 "2009-12-22T09:53:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Do you think China and India would have made it so quickly if Mao and Ghandi had been blown up in mysterious airplane accidents or stuffed in a CIA car trunk? When you kill, jail, pay-off and discredit a country’s leaders, it tends to make it difficult for them to find the kind of leadership they need to modernize quickly. Gandhi was assassinated in 1948, you know. India still turned out OK. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/99 "2009-12-22T10:04:33Z")
He was shot by a local political opponent with a relatively personal agenda. This is a very different thing than a targeted assassination by a colonizer/former colonizer with the express purpose of stalling independence or influencing who leads after independence. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796/100 "2009-12-22T10:22:13Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Well, Africa has been around as long as anywhere else, but fair enough. African nation-states have not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-post-colonial-african-countries-should-not-have-handed-over-power-so-quickly/521796.md?page=6)