# Maybe we should "Ask the Gay Guy"'s Mother... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2002, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600 "2002-09-09T02:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![W.Panic\_Snopes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@W.Panic\_Snopes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/W.Panic_Snopes)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/1 "2002-09-09T02:30:24Z")
At risk of making a sweeping generalization, I don’t believe than any truly intelligent and well informed people believe that a homosexual orientation is a choice. For many years, the conventional wisdom was that homosexual men (lesbians were always more enigmatic, evidently) resulted from Abdicating Fathers/Overly-possessive Mothers (AFOM). While recent studies seem to contradict this and suggest a more biological cause, and while I have known gay men who always enjoyed warm and loving relationships with their fathers, it really is true that a disproportionate number could describe their childhood as a traditional AFOM set of parents. (Disclaimer: I’m going on anecdotal evidence as somebody who has gay friends and relatives, not on empirical research.) In cases I’ve known in which a gay male did have AFOM parents, it was not uncommon for other sons in the family NOT to have had the same relationships with their parents. I have not known as many lesbians, so I would be interested to learn their opinions on the parent-child relationship’s influence as well. So my questions: What, if any, do you believe is the role of the parent-child relationship in a chld’s sexual orientation? Do you believe there is a greater likelihood that an AFOM couple will produce a gay son than a more well balanced couple (i.e. the AFOM parentage is either a psychological cause in and of itself or activates an inborn inclination)? Do you think that an AFOM couple could be the RESULT rather than the cause of a gay son (i.e. the father, feeling alienated or even repulsed by his sense that there is something “different” about the child [perhaps even experiencing a recidivist ‘this child is not likely to perpetuate my genes’ instinct], rejects the child {or the child rejects the father, even}, while the mother, to offset the rejection, responds my nourishing the child more than she otherwise would)? Do you feel that there’s no relationship whatever? If you do believe that the AFOM pattern is an influence in gay sons, do you believe that with the rise of single parent households there will be any change in the percentage of gay adults? (As said, I have known gay men who claim to have had the ideal “let’s go play ball and bond” relationships with their fathers, so please don’t respond just to say “not all gays have AFOMs”.) ---
**Author:** ![musteion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@musteion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musteion)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/2 "2002-09-09T03:16:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by W. Panic Snopes \* > > So my questions: What, if any, do you believe is the role of the > parent-child relationship in a chld’s sexual orientation? Without seeming unfounded sans citations, my personal experience has been that it really doesn’t matter. I’ve known gays, lesbians, and bisexuals from all different kinds of families. There doesn’t seem to be a pattern that I can discern. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/3 "2002-09-09T04:37:02Z")
Does it matter? I’m just glad for the variety in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/4 "2002-09-09T04:51:49Z")
I think all intelligent people are glad for variety, but it is interesting, and if the exact cause of homosexuality could be proven it would probably help in public acceptance. Personally I think there’s more than one cause: I think some people will be same sex oriented, period, it doesn’t matter who raises them or how happy or dysfunctional the family is, while others are a nature/nurture combo. I think the notion of the AFOM as a result has some merit, at least in some cases; the greatest argument for the AFOM NOT being the sole cause is that therapy and removal into new surroundings or independence would seem to reverse the orientation, and yet organizations like Exodus and Straightpath and the like are all mostly flops. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/5 "2002-09-09T13:54:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by W. Panic Snopes \* > **At risk of making a sweeping generalization, I don’t believe than any truly > intelligent and well informed people believe that a homosexual orientation is > a choice. For many years, the conventional wisdom was that homosexual men > (lesbians were always more enigmatic, evidently) resulted from Abdicating > Fathers/Overly-possessive Mothers (AFOM).** Actually, the conventional wisdom was that lesbians were _also_ the result of Abdicating Fathers/Overly-possessive Mothers. Somehow this combination was supposed to make men “girlie” and thus seek out male sexual partners but produced contempt for men in women and made them seek out female sexual partners. Riiight. I think it should be clear that all this was just an excuse to blame mothers for everything and has no more to do with reality than the old conventional wisdom that blamed autism on frigid mothers. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/6 "2002-09-09T15:24:15Z")
There is also the possibility that a son’s homosexuality may cause or at least reinforce any tendency for AFOM in the relationship with the parents - possibly a lack of common interests to draw the father and son together. I say this acknowledging that I have absolutely no evidence - anecdotal or otherwise- to back this up but I merely wish to point out that even a high degree of correlation would not necessarily indicate causation. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/7 "2002-09-09T15:38:48Z")
Conventional wisdom also once held that autism was caused by “refrigerator mothers,” that deliberately inducing insulin comas was all in all a pretty good way to treat the seriously mentally ill, and so on. I dunno. Conventional wisdom is best taken with bucketloads of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/8 "2002-09-09T15:47:06Z")
Some people still tell me that my ADHD is a result of television. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/9 "2002-09-09T16:17:00Z")
If this theory were true, then wouldn’t all the siblings of gay people also be gay, as they grew up in the same home? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/10 "2002-09-09T17:10:01Z")
Damn. I thought **Esprix** ’s mom had registered. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/11 "2002-09-09T17:20:53Z")
What Eve said. Since nobody has any real proof of why some people are gay and why some people aren’t (and why some people are bisexual and why some people are asexual and why some people prefer sheep or inflatable rubber dolls or wall-size posters of Farrah Fawcett), this whole discussion is, IMO, moot. Ask the gay guy’s mother what? If it’s her “fault”? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/12 "2002-09-09T19:04:56Z")
It’s interesting that the proposition keeps coming up, and (again bearing the observation that it is anecdotal) it was indeed my own experience that of the out gay men I knew, AFOM was more common than in the enormously larger set of “out straight men” I knew. If there is any good reason for identifying a “cause for gayness,” contemplate the variety of hypothetical genetic-complex and congenital causes that have been proposed, not as _causal_ factors but as _predisposing_ factors, and then select a set of “triggering” factors that would result in a same-sex attraction in those with the predisposition. Although it’s mildly offensive to do comparisons of homosexuality with disease, this has a parallel in oncogenes, where oncogenes will not cause, e.g., lung cancer, but will be the predisposing factor that causes people who smoke or work in polluted air to come down with lung cancer. I.e., oncogene + carcinogens = lung cancer; no oncogene and/or no carcinogenic environment = no lung cancer. It does, however, raise the question of why we might want to identify a “cause for homosexuality” (whether a single one, or a series of possible causes, or complex of potential predisposing and triggering causes) in the first place. It’s worth speculating about and trying to identify in the interest of pure learning, just as finding out why some people are left-handed is interesting. But in today’s environment, where the question is faced with the amount of ignorance and out-and-out bigotry it has, perhaps it’s not an appropriate question to ask at this time. Comment? ---
**Author:** ![cichlidiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f9b8f/32.png) [@cichlidiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cichlidiot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/13 "2002-09-09T21:30:00Z")
This is my initial thought. What’s the cause for being heterosexual? I can’t say figuring out why I’m hetero has a place of importance in my life. I can’t say that my acceptance of homosexuals has anything to do with my having figured out why. I haven’t figured it out. I think to contemplate AFOM and the results it may have on the offsprings’ sexuality, is really only important if one considers all outcomes, not just the homosexuality. I’m including myself in AFOM. My oldest brother is gay, I’m straight, and the 3 brothers that came after me are all straight as well. My oldest male cousin (paternal) is gay , and his sister is straight. Their father was not absent. My other cousins (maternal) male and female are all straight, and their fathers were absent. I have no idea if being homosexual or heterosexual is genetic, or if my brother is gay because my Dad died when we were young. I can’t say that it really matters to me. I can say that it would seem weird to me if someone decided to accept my brother or not, based on these factors. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/14 "2002-09-09T21:31:02Z")
Hey! Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/15 "2002-09-10T03:21:05Z")
I disagree with the idea that somehow this isn’t the time to decipher what exactly the cause for homosexuality is. True, there is a lot of ignorance on the topic already, and that is precisely why we must learn more about it, in order to start clearing up things, and dispel as many myths as possible. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/16 "2002-09-10T04:04:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*If this theory were true, then wouldn’t all the siblings of gay people also be gay, as they grew up in the same home? \*\* Not necessarily. Parents treat each child a little bit differently, after all. Additionally, one should consider the relative ages of the children, as the family circumstances do change through the years. And most importantly, there may be other external factors, whatever they may be, coming into play. Mind you, I’m not arguing one way or another. I’m merely pointing out that we shouldn’t necessarily expect all the siblings to turn out the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/17 "2002-09-10T13:59:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > Not necessarily. Parents treat each child a little bit differently, after all. Additionally, one should consider the relative ages of the children, as the family circumstances do change through the years. And most importantly, there may be other external factors, whatever they may be, coming into play. > > Mind you, I’m not arguing one way or another. I’m merely pointing out that we shouldn’t necessarily expect all the siblings to turn out the same way. \*\* True enough, but if an emotionally distant or completely absent father were even a _factor_ I think we could expect to see a greater tendency towards families where either all or none of the siblings were homosexual. Given the dramatic increase over the past few decades in the number of children born to unwed mothers or raised in homes headed by a single female parent, we could also expect to see a similarly dramatic increase in the number of homosexuals. This would be especially true in certain minority populations such as poor urban African-Americans. Yet this does not seem to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/18 "2002-09-10T18:57:35Z")
Yes, Lamia. We should definitely see a _correlation_ of some sort… and of course, one should categorize the test subject, to account for differing circumstances. Then there’s the question of the degree to which the father is distant or absent, and whether there are any surrogate fathers in place (live-in boyfriends, for example, or much older brothers). Anyway, the point remains that the siblings of gay people won’t necessarily be gay, even if this theory turns out to be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/19 "2002-09-10T19:06:21Z")
Yes, Lamia. We should definitely see a _correlation_ of some sort… and of course, one should categorize the test subject, to account for differing circumstances. Then there’s the question of the degree to which the father is distant or absent, and whether there are any surrogate fathers in place (live-in boyfriends, for example, or much older brothers). Anyway, the point remains that the siblings of gay people won’t necessarily be gay, even if this theory turns out to be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![E72521](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@E72521](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E72521)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600/20 "2002-09-10T22:23:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > If there is any good reason for identifying a “cause for gayness,” contemplate the variety of hypothetical genetic-complex and congenital causes that have been proposed, not as _causal_ factors but as _predisposing_ factors, and then select a set of “triggering” factors that would result in a same-sex attraction in those with the predisposition. Although it’s mildly offensive to do comparisons of homosexuality with disease, this has a parallel in oncogenes, where oncogenes will not cause, e.g., lung cancer, but will be the predisposing factor that causes people who smoke or work in polluted air to come down with lung cancer. I.e., oncogene + carcinogens = lung cancer; no oncogene and/or no carcinogenic environment = no lung cancer. If there is such a genetic predisposition, wouldn’t that predisposition eventually be eliminated from the gene pool? To me, that pretty much does away with the notion of a _gay gene_. The alternative would be that we all have the _gay gene_. Then the question would be: How does the presence of that gene factor into the continuation of the species? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maybe-we-should-ask-the-gay-guy-s-mother/127600.md?page=2)