# Mayor Palin tried to force her local Library to ban books she didn't like. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900 "2008-09-03T18:31:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/81 "2008-09-04T14:52:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now, if the evidence adduced against the candidate becomes so serious that it must be refuted, then of course the best of a set of bad alternatives is to submit the requisite test/evidence for public viewing. But that’s not appropriate in reaction to unproven allegations. Again, we are not using the same evidenciary standards to “prove” an allegation as in a court of law. In many cases it would be appropriate to downplay non-airtight allegations that don’t have a very good chance of being true, but in this case, most of the data points are true, the only thing questionable is what sort of censorship she was planning on implementing. Looking at the track record of censorship it is only logical to conclude that she mostly likely was planning on banning one of the widely-read, widely-carried, and widely-challenged books of the sort in the top 10 lists given in this thread, and refusal to rebut this only makes it more likely. After all, it would be political gold to take an easy anti-NAMBLA stance if those were the sort of books she disliked having in the library. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/82 "2008-09-04T14:54:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s true. > > But this is why the political process isn’t exactly the same as a job interview. > > The problem is that it’s a loss if Palin has to jump through hoops to answer every claim tossed at her. “The baby is your daughter’s.” “No, that’s not true.” “OK, take this DNA test to prove it.” > > Now, in a job interview, taking a test at your prospective employer’s behest is not usually a problem, because the prospective employer wants the best candidate, and selects tests to achieve that end. Granted it is different than a typical job interview. However, the political opponents are the ones keeping the other side honest. If there was no opponent to ask the hard question and point out issues a given party/politician cannot be trusted to hire the “best” candidate. It is in their interest to hire for loyalty or political expediency or to hand out favors (see Bush & Co. for a prime example). Unfortunately opponents tend to throw everything and the kitchen sink at each other and legitimate questions can get lost in the barrage of irrelevancies. Naturally, as you mentioned, it is not in a candidate’s interest to jump to every accusation and only the ones that stick must they deal with regardless of the underlying truth. I am with others here though in deeming book banning to be repugnant on the face of it and see it as a critical flaw in a potential candidate of any stripe. To me it does go against fundamental principles this country holds dear. Yes, there can be cases for censorship/banning but they must be looked at individually and with great scrutiny with the default stance being nothing will be banned till proven to be absolutely necessary and appropriate. The idea of one person being a city’s thought police is sickening. As such I think this is a HUGE question Palin should respond to. Unfortunately people on her own side are not only likely to overlook this but quite possibly actively agree with wanting to ban certain books they find offensive. So it falls to the rest of us to raise a stink and hope it rises to the level of unavoidable for her to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/83 "2008-09-04T14:56:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The mayor, as the chief executive, is in fact ultimately responsible for ensuring that the town staff, presumably including the librarian, follows the town guidance concerning books, yes. > > Now, the specific policy you imagine above is not an acceptable one. And you know why, and no one (it seems) knows what distinguishes it from what actually happened, since no one (it seems) knows what books she sought to ban. It’s remarkable that this information was so thoroughly lost. That depends on a lot of things other than law - and where there is law, it is (as I’m sure you can understand) apparently really convoluted - at least here. In Minnesota, towns have different types of charters. There are strong mayor towns where the mayor would have some authority over employees, there are strong council towns where the mayor has almost no power other than being a vote on the council. For the most part, however, these sorts of things are handled by the office of the city manager - which is overseen by the council. My town has had endless legal bills and settlements because our mayor got in and decided to clean house - and did so in such a way that has cost us a ton of money. and a lot of our reputation as a decent city. We almost lost our city insurance this year because of the irresponsible way our mayor chose to handle “cleaning house.” ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/84 "2008-09-04T15:32:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the contrary, it’s for the proponent of any proposition to offer the evidence proving his case. > > And besides, God wanted those books removed, as they were legally obscene. Proving me wrong is your responsibility. > > See the problem? Bricker, you know burden of proof doesn’t work like that. I can’t say there’s a dragon in my garage and you have to believe me until you prove me wrong, especially if I won’t let you in my garage. It’s absurd. Why are you being so disingenuous about this? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/85 "2008-09-04T15:44:02Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > We already have the main piece of evidence (she tried to ban books). . We have _nothing of the sort_. She inquired about how one would go about it. She said it was a rhetorical question. There is nothing to show otherwise. There’s not even meeting minutes or anything. There was no attempt to ban any book or any sort. It’s a reasonable question to ask. We can debate whether or not any books should be banned (and I’ll say that the Anarchist Cookbook should not be in general circulation, at least) but can anyone really state that simply _asking_ about bannings is evil? There is nothing to show the firing of the Librarian was connected, esp as she wasn’t really fired. It’s not uncommon for the new Chief Executive to ask that her underlings of the other pary resign. She did the same with the Chief of Police. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/86 "2008-09-04T15:46:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s a reasonable question to ask. Not in this country it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/87 "2008-09-04T15:57:42Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > After all, it would be political gold to take an easy anti-NAMBLA stance if those were the sort of books she disliked having in the library. That is rock-solid evidence that Palin wasn’t trying to ban anything that reasonable people could argue doesn’t belong in the library in the first place – if that had been the case 1)the town wouldn’t have opposed her to the point of forcing her to flip-flop and 2)she would have been careful to make the matter part of the public record so that she could benefit from it during future political endeavors. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/88 "2008-09-04T16:02:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We have _nothing of the sort_. She inquired about how one would go about it. She said it was a rhetorical question. Oh, puh-leeze. That excuse just compounds the situation with lame weaselry and insult to everyone’s intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/89 "2008-09-04T16:05:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is nothing to show the firing of the Librarian was connected, esp as she wasn’t really fired. It’s not uncommon for the new Chief Executive to ask that her underlings of the other pary resign. She did the same with the Chief of Police. Librarian is not a political position. If a librarian of 20+ years experience was fired directly after Palin took office, the only reasonable explanation can be that there was a personality clash of some kind. Whether that has to do with banned books or not, we’ll probably never know. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/90 "2008-09-04T16:08:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Thing is, those articles offer a different apparent motive for the firing: she was firing all of those officials on the vague grounds that she thought they ‘didn’t support her’, rather than singling out the librarian and firing her for not going along with her book-banning scheme. > > Now, it _may_ be the case that they are one and the same - that is, that the specific example of why the librarian was a “non-supporter” was that she wouldn’t ban books. What other criterion was there? Though I agree that, in principle, there _may_ have been a cornucopia of voices whispering betrayal, it seems kind of academic. If this was not a criterion for determining support, then why ask at all? And if it was a criterion, then that is enough for me to boo her down. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/91 "2008-09-04T16:22:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Possibly but frankly it is anathema to librarians to ban books. Any librarian worth their salt would out-of-hand reject a blanket request to ban books at the whim of the mayor. If a book is to be removed from the library a process exists to petition the library. If the librarian had agreed to Palin’s request I’d fire her for breach of her duties. > > So, if Palin used book banning to test the librarian’s loyalty it was a loaded metric from the get-go. I do not think Palin is stupid and would think she’d have to know that. And really, does the librarian need to be “loyal”? What do they have to do with anything except their books? Short of Palin wanting to hand out jobs to cronies as political favors I can see zero reason for targetting the city librarian of a tiny library. That’s the question: did she “target” the librarian? Sounds to me from the Salon article that she simply fired _everyone_ more or less indiscriminately: > [@](#): > > The first thing Palin did after being elected was fire six department heads in the City, including the Police Commissioner and the librarian. As The Anchorage Daily News put it: “the newly elected mayor of Wasilla has asked **all of the city’s top managers to resign** in order to test their loyalty to her administration.” There is, so far, exactly zero proof that the firing of the librarian had anything to do with book-banning - other than the bald insinuation to that effect. While the reasons given in the Salon article may also reflect badly on her (starting out one’s term with a mass firing for “loyalty” seems a trifle bizzare and paranoid), they are not the same as those imputed to her. Seems she demands total loyalty from the chief of police to the dog-catchers and librarians - which isn’t ther same thing as playing the amateur Inquisitor with book-bannings. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/92 "2008-09-04T16:26:42Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > What other criterion was there? Though I agree that, in principle, there _may_ have been a cornucopia of voices whispering betrayal, it seems kind of academic. If this was not a criterion for determining support, then why ask at all? And if it was a criterion, then that is enough for me to boo her down. Why assume there was any sort of relationship at all between an alleged question about book-banning and the firing? There _may_ be one, but it takes at least _some_ evidence to establish a link. The fact that she was firing a whole slate of _other_ small-time municipal officials at exactly the same time indicates that the librarian wasn’t being “targeted” for this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Booker\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/71c47a/32.png) [@Happy\_Booker\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Booker_1)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/93 "2008-09-04T16:42:22Z")
**Bricker,** the probability is that she didn’t even know which books she wanted to remove from the collection – and that’s a bad thing, not a good thing. It’s certainly not evidenciary, but I’d be willing to bet that something very like this was said to Ms. Palin: “Boy, I’m glad that you been elected. You can clean up the library. You wouldn’t believe some of the filthy language in those books, especially the ones they call ‘Young Adult’ books. I certainly wouldn’t want my junior high school student reading them.” Actually, I suspect that there would be more to the conversation than that…books that were about inappropriate sexual/social practices and not respectful of the role of the church, but that’s speculation that goes beyond Ms. Palin’s actions. The question that I suspect was asked of the librarian probably went something like this: “I’ve had complaints from some of my constituents about the language and attitudes of some of the books in the library. I’m sure that I can count on you to fix the situation.” As others have said, for a librarian that’s the equivalent of "I have a box full of kittens that I’d like you to convert into tasty hors d’oeurves. I’m sure I can count on your support.’ The good news is that the library and the librarian had built support in the town to stand up to the pressure. Without that support, there would have been a blank check for political interference with the library. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/94 "2008-09-04T16:42:22Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Not in this country it’s not. So we have Freedom of Speech except for when you think we don’t? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/95 "2008-09-04T16:44:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Why assume there was any sort of relationship at all between an alleged question about book-banning and the firing? There _may_ be one, but it takes at least _some_ evidence to establish a link. I suppose, in the strictest sense, it is entirely possible that the two events were entirely unrelated, though it does strain my imagination to concoct such a scenario, given what is known about the human animal. (Actually I have to shamefully admit that I cannot imagine such a scenario. But the universe has never seemed particularly compelled to abide by the powers of my imagination.) If they were unrelated, the question is really worth asking: why did she ask at all? Do you, **Malthus** , suppose that this question could have _no bearing_ on the question of whether or not the librarian was a supporter? As this is just a thought experiment, please feel free to make up any kind of scenario you choose that you feel might reflect possible circumstances. Facts to account for: 1) the hypothetical book-banning question; 2) Palin’s admission of ferretting out supporters through some sixth sense; 3) that the librarian was dismissed; and 4) that the librarian would refuse to ban books, given Palin’s question. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/96 "2008-09-04T16:52:08Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I suppose, in the strictest sense, it is entirely possible that the two events were entirely unrelated, though it does strain my imagination to concoct such a scenario, given what is known about the human animal. . As has been said, she gave those letters to several members of her Staff who were open political foes of her. Not suprising nor unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/97 "2008-09-04T16:53:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is, so far, exactly zero proof that the firing of the librarian had anything to do with book-banning - other than the bald insinuation to that effect. Well, I found this: > [@](#): > > Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. “She asked the library how she could go about banning books,” he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. “The librarian was aghast.” That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn’t be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving “full support” to the mayor. > > SOURCE: [http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html) So, seems others from the town are making the same claim. What other lack of “full support” would she expect from a librarian sufficient to fire her? > [@](#): > > While the reasons given in the Salon article may also reflect badly on her (starting out one’s term with a mass firing for “loyalty” seems a trifle bizzare and paranoid), they are not the same as those imputed to her. Seems she demands total loyalty from the chief of police to the dog-catchers and librarians - which isn’t ther same thing as playing the amateur Inquisitor with book-bannings. I think we are forgetting this is a freaking _librarian_! Not a political enemy. They tend books. I can kind of see her targeting police chiefs and such as a political matter but librarians? Didn’t someone suggest the librarian there had the job for 20 years or something? (I could be misremembering that) Hardly seems a worthy target for a politician, particularly in such a small town. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/98 "2008-09-04T16:58:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So we have Freedom of Speech except for when you think we don’t? How Orwellian. A person in a position of political authority inquiring how to go about censoring books in a public library has bugger-all to do with _excercising_ freedom of speech. It’s the first step in infringing freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/99 "2008-09-04T17:00:12Z")
The Supreme Court has wrestled with the definition of pornography many times. Sometimes settling for ,I know it when I see it. But this small town dictator will decide for her citizens what is proper to read. We can dance around if you chose, but she will ban on her religious convictions and see things through a distorted religious lens. I see no way that she can and should have anything to do with library books. She oversteps her bounds. She is a problem. I do not want Palin deciding what is proper for her citizens to read. She is a member of big brother. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/100 "2008-09-04T17:14:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fair enough. I’ll certainly allow that given such a law, you’re right and I’m wrong. > > Absent such a law, I maintain my claim. > > Does Alaska have such a law? > > And just for my edification: can you give a reference or cite to the New York law, please? I’m interested to read it. There may not be such a law in NY- it may be a more of an organizational matter. Sometimes, government agencies are not directly under the control of the executive- for example, until fairly recently the NYC mayor did not run the NYC public schools. They were run by a completely independent board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900.md?page=6)