# Mayor Palin tried to force her local Library to ban books she didn't like. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900 "2008-09-03T18:31:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/101 "2008-09-04T17:24:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As has been said, she gave those letters to several members of her Staff who were open political foes of her. Not suprising nor unusual. Weather is unrelated to politics. Book-banning is not unrelated to politics. The fact that a question related to politics happens in close temporal proximity to some other political decision does, indeed, suggest to me that the two events are somehow related. Indeed, I think this is a fairly natural conclusion. What is irrelevent is how many other people were fired. Imagine: new manager at your company, ready to cut out twice the fat and half the bone. He asks you, the filing manager, personally, how you feel about the vertical Noguchi filing system. You give him your answer. He fires you and twenty other people. Conclusion: ? a) No conclusion. That he asked you about the Noguchi filing system is irrelevant. Even though he didn’t value you enough to keep you on as an employee, doing work directly related to filing, your opinion on this particular office matter (of filing!) was quite respectable and worth his time. b) He had considered keeping you on, until you said that you think piles of paperwork are just messy, not a system, which showed that you were just not fit to work with him. I don’t mean to pressure you into choosing one of two possibilities when, I’m sure, we could devise many more. What I mean to point out is how strange it seems to me that these _are_ unrelated. So I’d kind of like any example I could cling to where they are unrelated, so I can say, “Ah, yeah, I see, some people _do_ do that kind of thing.” Just a hypothetical. _Plausible,_ but hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/102 "2008-09-04T17:24:35Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > How Orwellian. > > A person in a position of political authority inquiring how to go about censoring books in a public library has bugger-all to do with _excercising_ freedom of speech. It’s the first step in infringing freedom of speech. No, in fact discussing if and when books should be banned is a perfect example of Free Speech. Not allowing that discussion is the opposite of Free Speech. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/103 "2008-09-04T17:29:54Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Weather is unrelated to politics. Book-banning is not unrelated to politics. The fact that a question related to politics happens in close temporal proximity to some other political decision does, indeed, suggest to me that the two events are somehow related. Indeed, I think this is a fairly natural conclusion. What is irrelevent is how many other people were fired. > > Imagine: new manager at your company, ready to cut out twice the fat and half the bone. He asks you, the filing manager, personally, how you feel about the vertical Noguchi filing system. You give him your answer. He fires you and twenty other people. Conclusion: ? > > a) No conclusion. That he asked you about the Noguchi filing system is irrelevant. Even though he didn’t value you enough to keep you on as an employee, doing work directly related to filing, your opinion on this particular office matter (of filing!) was quite respectable and worth his time. > b) He had considered keeping you on, until you said that you think piles of paperwork are just messy, not a system, which showed that you were just not fit to work with him. > . c. He fired everyone who had stated they did not support him. And your answer may have been more like “anyone who doesn’t support the Noguchi system is a book burning Nazi”😛 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/104 "2008-09-04T17:38:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We have _nothing of the sort_. She inquired about how one would go about it. She said it was a rhetorical question. There is nothing to show otherwise. There’s not even meeting minutes or anything. There was no attempt to ban any book or any sort. It’s a reasonable question to ask. We can debate whether or not any books should be banned (and I’ll say that the Anarchist Cookbook should not be in general circulation, at least) but can anyone really state that simply _asking_ about bannings is evil? There you go. You can’t say it, but you can write a book about it and put it in the library. I think we should dispense of all this talk of what she actually said in a meeting with no minutes and just charge her with a thought crime and be done with it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/105 "2008-09-04T17:39:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, in fact discussing if and when books should be banned is a perfect example of Free Speech. Not allowing that discussion is the opposite of Free Speech. Wrong on two counts: 1. Accepting limits on your free speech is a condition of certain jobs. If you think that Burger King serves better food, you don’t get to express that opinion from behind a McDonald’s counter. If you think that believing in God is like believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, you don’t get to preach that a church pulpit (unless it’s a UU church or something of the sort :p). In this specific case, being the mayor imposes an obligation to abide by the state and federal constitutions. 1. The “discussion” in this case clearly crosses the line between theoretical advocacy and action. It resembles a “discussion” on the merits of purchasing an “insurance policy” for your business from a shifty-looking gentleman in a cheap suit as his muscular hangers-on in cheaper suits observe the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/106 "2008-09-04T17:41:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If the complaint were that she was trying to block the purchase of certain books, this might be an apt comparison. In this particular case, however, she was trying to remove books from the library that were already there, and she wanted to do so for purely ideological reasons. That’s quite a bit different from not stocking a book because no one’s ever heard of it. Couldn’t you say that ALL books in libraries are there for ideological reasons? The other option is that they’re chosen randomly—darts at a dart board. It’s just a matter of whose ideology will craft the collection. No? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/107 "2008-09-04T17:52:18Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Banning books is a white-hot stab directly at the heart of freedom. There is no more profoundly unAmerican act. It’s irrelevant that she floated the idea and backed off; to even _consider_ it for a moment is, in my mind, an instant disqualification from any sort of public service in this country. I realize you’re being all noble and such, but if that standard was actually applied, you’ll likely disqualify 90% of elected and appointed officials. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/108 "2008-09-04T17:53:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, in fact discussing if and when books should be banned is a perfect example of Free Speech. Not allowing that discussion is the opposite of Free Speech. True. This is why every library has policies in place for dealing with challenges. But whether Palin wanted to ban books or not, she still politicized the library by firing the librarian on a whim. It’s obvious because if there was a cause for the firing she would have released it during the public outcry rather than rehire the librarian. The firing is the part that’s uncalled for and pretty disgusting in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/109 "2008-09-04T17:59:07Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I suppose, in the strictest sense, it is entirely possible that the two events were entirely unrelated, though it does strain my imagination to concoct such a scenario, given what is known about the human animal. (Actually I have to shamefully admit that I cannot imagine such a scenario. But the universe has never seemed particularly compelled to abide by the powers of my imagination.) If they were unrelated, the question is really worth asking: why did she ask at all? > > Do you, **Malthus** , suppose that this question could have _no bearing_ on the question of whether or not the librarian was a supporter? As this is just a thought experiment, please feel free to make up any kind of scenario you choose that you feel might reflect possible circumstances. Facts to account for: 1) the hypothetical book-banning question; 2) Palin’s admission of ferretting out supporters through some sixth sense; 3) that the librarian was dismissed; and 4) that the librarian would refuse to ban books, given Palin’s question. Sure. Palin came into the mayor’s office determined to shake the deadwood out of the town’s administration. Some officials approved of her drive to clean the placeholders out - as the town was rapidly going to the dogs, nothing was getting done - and some obviously did not - particularly the deadwood in question. She drew up a list of those that did not support her drive, and on becomming mayor, fired the lot. Later on, her constituants protested that she had made a mistake: she had fired the librarian. Far from being “deadwood”, the librarian was actually a well-loved community worker. Palin had not had many dealings with the librarian before - in fact, she could only remember the subject of the library comming up once in counsel meetings, in an inconsequential musing on her part concerning the possibility of removing some books that could offend some parents, musings which never went anywhere and resulted in no action because she was told it was not a good idea - so she admitted her mistake as over-zealousness on her part and re-instated her. Note that the above is based on absolutely no knowledge of what actually happened (aside from what is here in this thread) and may bear zero relationship to reality. But then, the same goes for the more sinister version being peddled in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/110 "2008-09-04T18:06:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, in fact discussing if and when books should be banned is a perfect example of Free Speech. Not allowing that discussion is the opposite of Free Speech. She was not “discussing” banned books. She was a person in power who wanted to know _how_ to ban books. That has absolutely nothing to do with free speech. No more than it is to say that a mayor who asks the police chief “How do I go about getting my political opponents arrested?” is engaging in free speech. It’s not suppression of free speech to say that people who want to ban books should be disqualified from office. They are still free to go about saying they’d like to ban books. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/111 "2008-09-04T18:06:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think we are forgetting this is a freaking _librarian_! Not a political enemy. They tend books. I can kind of see her targeting police chiefs and such as a political matter but librarians? Didn’t someone suggest the librarian there had the job for 20 years or something? (I could be misremembering that) Hardly seems a worthy target for a politician, particularly in such a small town. The small town part is where you are going wrong. In Big Cities, the Librarian is a degreed Professional, , who _answers_ to a Politician or a Board. In a small town, the Librarian is often a political appointee, just like the Chief of Police, etc. That doesn’t mean they aren’t a degreed professional, just that it’s more of an _appointment_ than a Civil Service _job_. Since she could be fired, clearly she is not Civil Service. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/112 "2008-09-04T18:08:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The small town part is where you are going wrong. In Big Cities, the Librarian is a degreed Professional, , who _answers_ to a Politician or a Board. In a small town, the Librarian is often a political appointee, just like the Chief of Police, etc. That doesn’t mean they aren’t a degreed professional, just that it’s more of an _appointment_ than a Civil Service _job_. Since she could be fired, clearly she is not Civil Service. You are incorrect. Librarians are not appointed. They are solely hired through a Civil Service job posting. And any town above a very tiny threshold (I believe in some states it’s as low as 2,000 residents), the librarian must have a Masters of Library Science. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/113 "2008-09-04T18:12:57Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Wrong on two counts: > > 1. Accepting limits on your free speech is a condition of certain jobs. .. > In this specific case, being the mayor imposes an obligation to abide by the state and federal constitutions. > > 2. The “discussion” in this case clearly crosses the line between theoretical advocacy and action. . 1. The Federal and State Const allows banning of certain books. In fact, you could be imprisoned for simply possesing certain items. SCOTUS discusses Freedom of speech and its limitations fairly often, I suppose you think they need to resign next time the issue come up? :rolleyes:Next, certain items can & should be restricted. 2. “_clearly_”? Really? Exactly what was said in what context? You don’t know nor does anyone else. Ther’s no “clearly” about this. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/114 "2008-09-04T18:17:58Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > You are incorrect. Librarians are not appointed. They are solely hired through a Civil Service job posting. And any town above a very tiny threshold (I believe in some states it’s as low as 2,000 residents), the librarian must have a Masters of Library Science. You have a cite that the Librarian of that town was a Civil Service position? And the population of Wasilla was around 5000. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/115 "2008-09-04T18:18:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sure. > > Palin came into the mayor’s office determined to shake the deadwood out of the town’s administration. Some officials approved of her drive to clean the placeholders out - as the town was rapidly going to the dogs, nothing was getting done - and some obviously did not - particularly the deadwood in question. And the librarian can be included in this how? What power–besides selecting books for the library–does a librarian have that the mayor would need a librarian’s support? As far as I can tell, a librarian is really kind of not a big powerhouse in a town. (I admit the plural of anecdote is not data. You may regard this as a real question.) A mayor wants to get things done that wasn’t getting done, so the mayor removes the librarian. _What do librarians do, and how might this relate to book-banning?_ But wait. I know how it might relate to book-banning. _What do librarians do that, after a firing following a book-banning question, would have nothing to do with book-banning?_ Does the librarian double as a treasurer? Does the librarian secretly control petitions? How, exactly, does a librarian stand in the way of a mayor? > [@](#): > > Note that the above is based on absolutely no knowledge of what actually happened (aside from what is here in this thread) and may bear zero relationship to reality. But then, the same goes for the more sinister version being peddled in this thread. Understood completely. It was exactly what I asked for. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/116 "2008-09-04T18:19:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. The Federal and State Const allows banning of certain books. In fact, you could be imprisoned for simply possesing certain items. SCOTUS discusses Freedom of speech and its limitations fairly often, I suppose you think they need to resign next time the issue come up? :rolleyes: Next, certain items can & should be restricted. > > 2. “_clearly_”? Really? Exactly what was said in what context? You don’t know nor does anyone else. Ther’s no “clearly” about this. 1. There are no “books” that someone could possess that would be grounds for imprisonment. Homemade scrapbooks of kiddie porn do not count in a discussion of banned books in a library. 2. The librarian was fired and then rehired after a public outcry. A librarian is not a political figure and her job is not a political appointment. Palin _ **CLEARLY** _ (let the bold, italics and caps sink in) crossed the line. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/117 "2008-09-04T18:28:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You have a cite that the Librarian of that town was a Civil Service position? And the population of Wasilla was around 5000. I don’t, but according to the Alaska Department of Education, the Wasila library served a population of 24,000 people in 1996 with one MLS-holding librarian and three librarians total. A library of that size would never be allowed to fill those positions by appointment. [http://library.state.ak.us/pdf/anc/fy96.pdf](http://library.state.ak.us/pdf/anc/fy96.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/118 "2008-09-04T18:38:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, in fact discussing if and when books should be banned is a perfect example of Free Speech. Not allowing that discussion is the opposite of Free Speech. The discussion has already been had. There is nothing more to add. We don’t ban books. Are you suggesting that Palin knew of some books that had been banned and wanted to return those books to the shelves? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/119 "2008-09-04T18:38:31Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I don’t, but according to the Alaska Department of Education, the Wasila library served a population of 24,000 people in 1996 with one MLS-holding librarian and three librarians total. A library of that size would never be allowed to fill those positions by appointment. > > [http://library.state.ak.us/pdf/anc/fy96.pdf](http://library.state.ak.us/pdf/anc/fy96.pdf) If so, then Palin didn’t fire the Librarian. Case closed. Either the Librarian is an appointee, who can be fired; or it’s a Civil Service position, which can not be fired. You have to give me a cite which shows what sort of Position the City Librarian is, the one we are talking about. It’s not impossible there are two postions, one City appointee, one Civil Service for the entire library system. Indeed, some Police dep’t work exactly that way. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900/120 "2008-09-04T18:42:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If so, then Palin didn’t fire the Librarian. Case closed. > > Either the Librarian is an appointee, who can be fired; or it’s a Civil Service position, which can not be fired. Are you under the impression that Civil Service employees can’t be fired? Damn, I’m coming to work nekkid tomorrow because they can’t fire me! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mayor-palin-tried-to-force-her-local-library-to-ban-books-she-didnt-like/461900.md?page=7)