# Mcain and others say they will add torture ban to all major legislation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730 "2005-11-06T03:16:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/21 "2005-11-07T02:27:30Z")
Can anyone identify the 9 pro-torture US Senators who voted against the McCain amendment? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/22 "2005-11-07T02:31:56Z")
How can they even think Torture could be an option? I think this is one more case where McCain is 100% right. When an administration ignores what is right, it is the responsibility of everyone to rein them back in. The Bush/Cheney Admin is dragging the US down into the mud. The reason for the no torture bill should be self-evident. Jim. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/23 "2005-11-07T02:39:16Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Can anyone identify the 9 pro-torture US Senators who voted against the McCain amendment? [All Republicans, and Inhofe (surprise!) is among them](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00249#position) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/24 "2005-11-07T03:09:30Z")
Although I find the spirit of McCain’s strategy satisfying I am disturbed that our system is so easily abused. Why is it still like this? If you want to spend 10 million studying cow farts you should have to let it pass or fail on its own merits, not letting it sail under the radar under some 300 page bill that no one is going to read. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/25 "2005-11-07T03:42:44Z")
> [@mstay](#): > > letting it sail under the radar under some 300 page bill that no one is going to read. Sure, no one ever looks at the nation’s yearly defense budget. That’s why we’re over a month into fiscal 2006, and they haven’t bothered to finish it yet, because no one cares. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/26 "2005-11-07T04:20:43Z")
> [@mstay](#): > > Although I find the spirit of McCain’s strategy satisfying I am disturbed that our system is so easily abused. Why is it still like this? If you want to spend 10 million studying cow farts you should have to let it pass or fail on its own merits, not letting it sail under the radar under some 300 page bill that no one is going to read. The amendment and whether or not it should be added to the bill was debated on the merit and passed on that basis wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/27 "2005-11-07T04:41:57Z")
One thing that really bothers me is that we have a generation of young people who think that it is SOP to give public consideration to the idea. They will never have the genuine pride of believing we are “the good guys” and not just “the big guys.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/28 "2005-11-07T04:54:17Z")
Oops. Forgot to answer the OP’s questions. 1. Yes, I think John McCain’s idea is a good one. He won’t have to do it for long. 2. The question of torture will continue to hurt Bush the more that it is talked about. The more that Americans have to face the realities of torture, the more they will back down from being bullies about it. 3. If we are incapable of functioning without torture, I would want to hear that from both political parties before deciding what to do next. 4. As you might gather from all I have said, I am gobsmacked that we have come to this in America. _Never_ would I have thought it a possibility even five years ago. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/29 "2005-11-07T05:11:09Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > 1. As you might gather from all I have said, I am gobsmacked that we have come to this in America. _Never_ would I have thought it a possibility even five years ago. I remember well being in our golf clubhouse right after the taking of Baghdad and somebody said words to the effect of - Well, that’s over and those peaceniks said we couldn’t do it. And just look where we are now. Actually debating whether or no torture should be used with supposedly sober people excusing it. And it’s going on now probably with secret detention facilities, and the consideration of turning over certain prisoners to presumably friendly countries where torture is routine and on and on … ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/30 "2005-11-07T05:20:32Z")
[2004 Poll: Americans Split on How to Interrogate](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59631-2004May27.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/31 "2005-11-07T16:02:38Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > > [@an article](#): > > > > ]Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita … > > > > “So there’s a perception that the kind of rigidity that comes with these kinds of amendments could **restrict the president’s flexibility** in the global war on terror,” DiRita said. “And anything that restricts our ability to engage this highly agile adversary is not desirable.” A _true_ conservative would not only recognize, but promote, the idea that the entire reason for the Constitution _ **is specifically to restrict the powers the government can use** _, and that the Constitution and founding fathers recognized that the government would always _say_ that special circumstances required exceptions to be made. Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/32 "2005-11-07T16:16:26Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Also, there is a continuum on the scale of interrogation \<----\> torture. I haven’t followed this battle too closely, but is this more about exactly where to draw the line or is the legislation really as loosely defined as saying “no torture allowed”. I mean, what exactly is torture and what isn’t torture? I am unable to find the exact language, however, there is this: > [@](#): > > The ban would establish the Army Field Manual as the guiding authority in interrogations and prohibit “cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment” of prisoners. I have to assume that the Army Field Manual has some guidelines in it. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/33 "2005-11-07T16:27:43Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I have to assume that the Army Field Manual has some guidelines in it. [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/etc/faqs.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/etc/faqs.html) > [@](#): > > The[most recent version](https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/altfmt/6999-1) of Field Manual 34-52, Intelligence Interrogation was published in September 1992. Its guidelines cover battlefield capture and screening logistics and the third chapter details the planning, approach, questioning, and termination phases of an interrogation. According to the FM 34-52, the interrogator’s goal during the approach phase is to establish rapport with the detainee, which can be done via 17 different methods, including: > > [ul] > [li]“Emotional”: taking advantage of a source’s strong feelings; [/li][li]“Fear-up”: exploiting a source’s fears, real or imagined; [/li][li]“Pride and ego”: flattering a source or attacking his pride, both to serve the purpose of putting him in a frame of mind to reveal information;[/li][li]“Futility”: using facts to prove to the source that his or her current situation is hopeless.[/li][/ul] > > These methods each have several sub-categories, such as “fear-up (harsh)” or “ego-down,” and are recommended to be used in combination with each other for the best effect. > > However, the use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor condoned by the U.S. government. And the manual states, “The psychological techniques and principles in this manual should neither be confused with, nor construed to be synonymous with, unauthorized techniques such as brainwashing, physical or mental torture, or any other form of mental coercion to include drugs that may induce lasting and permanent mental alteration and damage.” For reference, the Manual includes excerpts from the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, and under “Interrogator Capabilities and Limitations,” it states that the Convention sets “definite limits on measures which can be taken to induce an EPW [Enemy Prisoner of War] to cooperate.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/34 "2005-11-07T16:31:59Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Congress can’t impeach someone just because they don’t like him. Their powers in that regard are very limited too. Yes, he has to have had a blowjob, too. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/35 "2005-11-07T16:32:32Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/etc/faqs.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/etc/faqs.html) Thank you! My google skills are below abysmal this morning. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/36 "2005-11-07T16:40:24Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Yes, he has to have had a blowjob, too. Maybe you need an edjimacashion. [http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/e-gov/e-politicalarchive-Clintonimpeach.htm](http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/e-gov/e-politicalarchive-Clintonimpeach.htm) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/37 "2005-11-07T16:46:13Z")
The point is that yes, Congress indeed can impeach for any damn reason it wants to. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/38 "2005-11-07T16:58:57Z")
You have to love the FMs. Great books, and many of them are well worth reading for civilians, for enjoyment or for utility… Survival, for example, has taught me much about the woods I live in and near. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/39 "2005-11-07T17:03:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The point is that yes, Congress indeed can impeach for any damn reason it wants to. The point is this isn’t My Uninformed Opinion board. That is two doors down on the left. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730/40 "2005-11-07T17:07:49Z")
**AFAIKnow** , [you want room 12A, Just along the corridor](http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-arguement.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcain-and-others-say-they-will-add-torture-ban-to-all-major-legislation/329730.md?page=3)