# McCain Gaffe Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 11, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582 "2008-06-11T16:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/181 "2008-08-22T01:08:14Z")
It’s been a busy two days for McCain. First he inadvertanly said he thinks reinstating the draft is a good idea and then he couldn’t remember how many houses he owns. His spokesman answered back with who you gonna believe the pointy-headed arugula eater or a POW? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/182 "2008-08-22T01:15:39Z")
[QUOTE=Biggirl] It’s been a busy two days for McCain. First he inadvertanly said he thinks reinstating the draft is a good idea and then he couldn’t remember how many houses he owns. His spokesman answered back with who you gonna believe the pointy-headed arugula eater or a POW? [/QUOTE] the house thing is just amazing. (paraphrased) I don’t know (how many houses the wife & I own) I’ll have to have my staff get back w/you??? and **Obama** is the elitest??? (that, by the way should be the ad) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/183 "2008-08-22T02:16:11Z")
Why is reinstating the draft necessarily a bad idea? Obviously, it’s probably not a smart thing for a pol to say, but still… ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/184 "2008-08-22T02:19:37Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Why is reinstating the draft necessarily a bad idea? Obviously, it’s probably not a smart thing for a pol to say, but still… [/QUOTE] b-cuz it’s an admission our military is overextended, but more importantantly, to admit we’e over extended the volunteer army and need the draft is, on a national basis, nearly a deal breaker. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/185 "2008-08-22T03:13:56Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Why is reinstating the draft necessarily a bad idea? Obviously, it’s probably not a smart thing for a pol to say, but still… [/QUOTE] Vietnam? I don’t really feel there’s anything else to it, but just in case: it brings back all the memories of Vietnam, not to mention all the protesting and counter culture. No one really gives a shit about Iraq in America because for most of us it doesn’t really affect our daily lives. Force best friends, brothers, husbands, whatever over there and we’ll see how long the apathy lasts. Which, I suppose is a good thing eventually: ends the war quicker, total disaster for Republicans. But still a horrible idea from the gate. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/186 "2008-08-22T03:28:43Z")
> [@McCain spokestool Brian Rogers](#): > > This is a guy who lived in one house for five and a half years – in prison I keep hearing The Dude’s voice in my head whenever McCain’s people do this. “And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/187 "2008-08-22T03:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha] Vietnam? I don’t really feel there’s anything else to it, but just in case: it brings back all the memories of Vietnam, not to mention all the protesting and counter culture. No one really gives a shit about Iraq in America because for most of us it doesn’t really affect our daily lives. Force best friends, brothers, husbands, whatever over there and we’ll see how long the apathy lasts. [/QUOTE] Bad memories do not mean something is A Bad Thing. The point of my question is this: can you really call something a gaffe just because it’s politically unpopular? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/188 "2008-08-22T03:40:28Z")
That’s the McCain camp’s all purpose answer to any kind of criticism or question. ""HE WAS A POW!!11! Like they think that’s supposed to end all arguments. I’ve even heard pundits use it as an excuse for his adultery. It’s bound to reach a level of diminishing returns sooner or later. I’m beginning to no longer give a fuck that he was POW. How is that either a qualification for President or a proof of perfect moral virtue. By McCainaanite standards, we’ve got scads of morally pure Leaders of Men sitting in Gitmo right now. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/189 "2008-08-22T05:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Bad memories do not mean something is A Bad Thing. The point of my question is this: can you really call something a gaffe just because it’s politically unpopular? [/QUOTE] Ah, I get where you going with this, now. It’s not a gaffe in and of itself. But as said upthread, if you have positioned yourself as Pro-Iraq War all this time, especially if you’ve repeatedly said “The surge works, we are winning, Iraq is a utopia, everyone now frolics hand in hand” then suggesting a draft is a complete reversal on this. And yea, I consider it a Bad Thing because the war is stupid and wasteful, etc. Killing/maiming our volunteers for no apparent reason is bad enough, but _forcing_ citizenry to line up for the slaughterhouse is somehow way far beyond where we’ve already been in terms of “morally reprehensible.” In the best of cases, for the best of causes, a draft might be necessary, but Iraq definitely isn’t either. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/190 "2008-08-22T06:46:51Z")
The all volunteer military do NOT want draftees working next to them. Period. It’s a bad idea to start a stupid war, refuse to get OUT of the stupid war when it goes bad on you the way all the smart people said it would and then FORCE other people to go fight and die in your stupid war that you’re too stupid and stubborn to get the fuck out of. Also, McCain is looking stupider and stupider on what’s supposed to be his strong suit as the Bush administration agrees to a timeline to pull troops out of Iraq after McCain says we’re supposed to stay there ad infinitum. Military people are getting really tired of [McCain playing the “Noun, Verb, POW!” game.](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/21/205255/705/324/572249) McCain says that if you’re making less than five million a year, you aren’t rich. Then forgets how many houses he has. Yeah. Who’s out of touch with real people again? [Some tasty video for your viewing pleasure.](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/21/205255/705/324/572249) Let’s not forget the whole cheating on his wife thing and dumping her for a younger and richer wife–classy! That plays really well to faith and family values voters. [Here, this is just frakkin’ funny!](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/21/205255/705/324/572249) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/191 "2008-08-22T11:07:29Z")
[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha] Killing/maiming our volunteers for no apparent reason is bad enough, but _forcing_ citizenry to line up for the slaughterhouse is somehow way far beyond where we’ve already been in terms of “morally reprehensible.” [/QUOTE] This is why I think a draft is an excellent idea. Going to war doesn’t mean sending volunteers to do the jobs they’ve agreed to do, it means sending voters, and the children/grandchildren/family/friends of voters to get their asses shot at. It means you, or your son or your cousin or your nephew or the guy in cubicle 12 could get picked at random to be sent to some godforsaken hellhole in support of this particular foreign policy choice. It makes war filthy, it makes it hit home, hard and fast and personal, and nobody gets to avoid being involved just because they choose to avoid military service. I wonder how many people would have voted for Bush in 2004 if they knew someone personally who was pulled away from their civilian life to spend time in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/192 "2008-08-22T13:13:35Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Going to war doesn’t mean sending volunteers to do the jobs they’ve agreed to do [/QUOTE] Actually, yes it does, if you want to wage it based on effectiveness rather than goofy political posturing. You might disagree. Well, then, next time you get sick ask the guy in cubicle 12 to fix you up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/193 "2008-08-22T13:29:53Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] Actually, yes it does, if you want to wage it based on effectiveness rather than goofy political posturing. [/QUOTE] Conscripted armies are no less effective than volunteer ones. Works fine for the Israelis. Works fine for the Russians. Worked extremely well for pretty much everyone during WWI and II. There was an episode of [Yes Prime Minister](http://www.yes-minister.com/ypmseas1a.htm) which included a list of the obvious pros and cons of compulsory military service: > [@](#): > > Sir Humphrey: “You know what happens: nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don’t want to look a fool, do you? So she starts asking you some questions: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Do you think there is a lack of discipline in our Comprehensive schools?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Do you think they respond to a challenge?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Would you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?” > Bernard Woolley: “Oh…well, I suppose I might be.” > Sir Humphrey: “Yes or no?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Of course you would, Bernard. After all you told you can’t say no to that. So they don’t mention the first five questions and they publish the last one.” > Bernard Woolley: “Is that really what they do?” > Sir Humphrey: “Well, not the reputable ones no, but there aren’t many of those. So alternatively the young lady can get the opposite result.” > Bernard Woolley: “How?” > Sir Humphrey: “Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Are you worried about the growth of armaments?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Do you think there is a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Do you think it is wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?” > Bernard Woolley: “Yes” > Sir Humphrey: “There you are, you see Bernard. The perfect balanced sample.” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/194 "2008-08-22T13:41:33Z")
The point is that I don’t want to wage it at all. It’s too easy to send in the professionals, and keep everyone else insulated. The decision (made by politicians) needs to be hard, if political posturing is the only way to make that decision hard, then so be it. We are now reaping the “benefits” of having an easy wartime decision. Thousands of Americans dead, who knows how many Iraqis. Hundreds of billions of dollars spent, and foreign relations flushed down the crapper. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/195 "2008-08-22T18:53:36Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Bad memories do not mean something is A Bad Thing. The point of my question is this: can you really call something a gaffe just because it’s politically unpopular? [/QUOTE] If you are making a major policy proposal, like the reintroduction of the draft, you do it in a speech with plenty of justification. You don’t toss it in as a “by the way”. The only good thing about a draft is that it would be amusing and nostalgic to see the 70% of people against Bush surrounding the White House in a massive protest. But I’m lucky, I have daughters. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/196 "2008-08-22T19:49:48Z")
The “How Many Houses” story builds up a full head of steam: [Robin _Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous_ Leach comes to McCain’s defense](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/08/robin-leach-on.html), [his personal budget for household employees went up 50% last year](http://nitpicker.blogspot.com/2008/08/who-says-john-mccain-is-out-of-touch.html), and [he takes a nine-car motorcade to buy a cappuccino.](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-campaign22-2008aug22,0,2934245.story) At this point, every little thing he has done or said is going to be seen through this prism, and as long as he pushes the “Obama is Elitist” meme, more media outlets are going to be comfortable telling it like it is: > [@](#): > > McCain, who has portrayed Obama as an elitist, is the son and grandson of admirals. The Associated Press estimates his wife, a beer heiress, is worth $100 million. Obama was raised by a single mother who relied at times on food stamps, and went to top schools on scholarships and loans. His income has increased from book sales since he spoke at the 2004 Democratic convention. (from the bastion of liberal thinking, **USA Today** ). And the [YouTubes](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7PfSEtiXPw) keep on coming, too. And he’s got nobody but himself to blame… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/197 "2008-08-22T20:48:00Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] And he’s got nobody but himself to blame… [/QUOTE] Well, there _is_ Cindy. If McCain’s elected president, she’ll probably lay off the houses, and start buying _wars_ without her husband’s knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/198 "2008-08-22T22:09:05Z")
Another one that [fell through the cracks](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/16/16825/8416/570/568960) in Colorado: > [@](#): > > In an interview yesterday with the Pueblo Chieftan, McCain committed what could amount political suicide in the state by saying that the 1922 water compact negotiated between seven western states should be renegotiated to give Arizona, Nevada, and California (the Lower Basin states) more water. That’s unlikely to make Wyoming, Utah, and New Mexico (the Upper Basin states) any happier than it’s made Colorado… > > Reaction in Colorado has been swift and incensed. Of course, he’s now [backpedaling](http://www.chieftain.com/articles/2008/08/21/news/local/doc48ad15f889ed5821898517.txt), though the locals aren’t buying it: > [@](#): > > “I think the word, ‘renegotiate,’ does not have double meaning,” Ritter said in a conference call with Salazar and the press on Wednesday. “It is about opening it up and negotiating it again, and the fact that he’s willing to do that again has to demonstrate in my mind, given the context of it, a bias for the lower basin states. His desire still to renegotiate it . . . was really pretty direct.” > > McCain’s comments created a firestorm in the state with Democrats and Republicans alike denouncing the notion, saying McCain could lose votes over it in Colorado and New Mexico, which have been called possible swing states in this year’s presidential race between McCain and Democratic Sen. Barack Obama. > > Ritter said that at best, McCain’s letter to Allard showed him “flip-flopping” on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/199 "2008-08-23T01:01:58Z")
[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha] Ah, I get where you going with this, now. It’s not a gaffe in and of itself. But as said upthread, if you have positioned yourself as Pro-Iraq War all this time, especially if you’ve repeatedly said “The surge works, we are winning, Iraq is a utopia, everyone now frolics hand in hand” then suggesting a draft is a complete reversal on this. And yea, I consider it a Bad Thing because the war is stupid and wasteful, etc. Killing/maiming our volunteers for no apparent reason is bad enough, but _forcing_ citizenry to line up for the slaughterhouse is somehow way far beyond where we’ve already been in terms of “morally reprehensible.” In the best of cases, for the best of causes, a draft might be necessary, but Iraq definitely isn’t either. [/QUOTE] I used to believe this but no longer. I believe that a universal draft might prevent some wars, and shorten others. The more young people from all walks of society whose lives are threatened in an unjust war, the more likely it is that the populace will force an end to it sooner. I say this from the comfortable position of being too old to be drafted, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/200 "2008-08-23T19:30:45Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > The point of my question is this: can you really call something a gaffe just because it’s politically unpopular? If it’s _reinstating the draft_, then yes. Calling that “politically unpopular” is like calling a Harrier jet “a little pricy”. Or, for that matter, an indeterminate number of houses, including one incredibly expensive property in San Diego that Cindy almost defaulted on recently. McSame is making it perfectly clear that he has no idea what the daily experience of the rest of us is like. How does he have any more than 5% of the vote? It’s mind-boggling. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Works fine for the Israelis. I don’t know if you’ve ever spent much time in Israel talking to the IDF troops. I’m going to assume you haven’t, because if you had, you would know that the comparison is absurd and that would make you intellectually dishonest or intentionally misleading, a label I’m not prepared to stick to you. Israeli Jewish culture, vis a vis military service, is so incredibly different from ours that they’re not even comparable. Keep in mind, by the way, that compulsory military service in Israel applies _only_ to Jews and other (small) Semitic groups who have decided as a community to send their young men and women to the front lines, like the Druze. (Yes, men and women.) Israel is a place where every 18-year-old Jewish citizen knows at least one close friend or family member who has died in a terrorist or military attack, and probably more. Israel is a place where a constant, rigid, violent defense is required to ensure the nation’s very existence on a day-to-day basis. To compare Israel and the United States in this fashion is utterly absurd. And there’s this: > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > I say this from the comfortable position of being too old to be drafted, of course. It seems a funny coincidence that _every single person I have ever met_ who is pro-draft is way too old to be drafted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582.md?page=11)