# McCain Gaffe Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 11, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582 "2008-06-11T16:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/221 "2008-08-24T20:10:39Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] The only supporter of “the” draft whose wisdom has ever impressed me was a college professor who believed that the draft should have a mechanism for conscientious objectors (that is, most of its subjects) to serve in the Peace Corps or a comparable domestic service instead of the military. As a campaign staffer, I run into a lot of people with all kinds of different opinions every day, and so far everyone else who’s pro-draft struck me as massively ignorant before they even mentioned the issue. YMMV. [/QUOTE] The draft, at least during the Vietnam War, did allow for conscientious objectors, to perform alternative service. My dad was drafted (in the very first lottery; no wonder he’s always said his birthday is an unlucky day), jumped through the hoops and acquired conscientious objector status. I’m not exactly sure how it was assigned to him (I could ask if you really want to know), but as alternative service he worked for two years as a social worker in Oakland. So it was possible even then to opt out of the draft, but you’ll note it still wasn’t particularly popular. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/222 "2008-08-24T20:14:01Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I was overlooking those, but not unreasonably; conscription has been a way of life in many countries right up to the present day, all of which have had to deal with the issues you mention. And how many of them are as big as the United States and have to handle the subsidization of hundreds of millions of peoples’ entire lifestyle? > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > we already subsidize those things for a significant percentage of all 18-20 year olds. They’re called college students. If you really believe that every college student is covered as extensively by financial aid and familial help as veterans are by the Montgomery GI Bill, can you explain how I fell headlong into malnutrition and crushing debt working and going to school last year? My story is by no means unusual. Have you met any lower-middle-class college students lately? > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > There’s no reason that all those kids would be sent off to battle. Of course. But many of them would, and the rest would all have at least some small chunk of the responsibility for our national security–however infinitesimal–in their hands. The opportunity for sabotage is ripe even for a kid who never sees battle. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Anyway, there would naturally have to be some sort of exception made for conscientious or religious objectors; civil public service, the Peace Corps, medical units, etc. That’s not a given, but I’m glad you support it. I think that would have to be a part of any compulsory service plan–and a _big_ part, that you don’t have to scratch and claw to get into–for me to support it, personally. > [@Steve MB](#): > > There is no such assertion. I noted the known fact that a professional force is, for obvious reasons, more effective than a randomly selected hodgepodge. Without a cite, it’s not a “known fact”, it’s just a bald assertion. Come on, man, you’re not that dumb. Which “multi-star generals”, and from which nations, agree with you? > [@Alessan](#): > > If your generals say that your military is better now, well, what else would they say? It’s important to note that under the UCMJ, an American general who made a public statement to the contrary during a time of war (i.e., the last 5 years) would probably be subject to prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/223 "2008-08-24T20:16:56Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > The draft, at least during the Vietnam War, did allow for conscientious objectors, to perform alternative service. ISTM, from the massively common story of other anti-war draftees being sent off to Vietnam, that it was a lot harder to get conscientious objector status conferred upon oneself than it should have been. > [@Kyla](#): > > So it was possible even then to opt out of the draft, but you’ll note it still wasn’t particularly popular. Absent reliable evidence to the contrary, I would assume that almost every draftee who objected to the war made the greatest possible attempt to get out of fighting in it. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/224 "2008-08-24T20:40:15Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] Absent reliable evidence to the contrary, I would assume that almost every draftee who objected to the war made the greatest possible attempt to get out of fighting in it. [/QUOTE] So, you think there should be a draft, but that everyone who wants to opt out should be allowed to? What on earth would be the point? Why not just call for a period of national service? Some European countries do this (I know Austria does off the top of my head, but I have a feeling there are others). Say, one or two years to work in some kind of service situation. It’d never happen, but it wouldn’t be greeted by the uproar that the word “draft” would. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/225 "2008-08-24T20:46:46Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > So, you think there should be a draft No. > [@Kyla](#): > > What on earth would be the point? Exactly. > [@Kyla](#): > > Why not just call for a period of national service? Now you’re speaking my language! ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/226 "2008-08-24T20:54:00Z")
Okeydoke. Well, even though I am personally a big proponent of service, I don’t believe making it mandatory is the way to go. Plus, you’d never get much public support for the idea. IMHO, a better idea would be to promote the concept of service more. There already are service programs for people who are educated or in the process of becoming so, like AmeriCorps (which I think is largely populated by current college students or recent grads) or Peace Corps (which almost always requires a college degree), but I think it would be feasible to create another service corps for people who do not have the education. Hm. Now that I think about it, it’s beginning to sound like the WPA. I don’t know that the public would readily accept a new New Deal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/227 "2008-08-24T23:34:08Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] And how many of them are as big as the United States and have to handle the subsidization of hundreds of millions of peoples’ entire lifestyle? [/QUOTE] China. Anyway, it doesn’t matter how large the country (or its population) is- the economy will generally be that much larger to match. The United States of America is the richest country on Earth, and it isn’t close. If _any_ other nation can afford to do it, we certainly can. Our defense budget is just a hair under that of the rest of the world combined. > [@](#): > > If you really believe that every college student is covered as extensively by financial aid and familial help as veterans are by the Montgomery GI Bill, can you explain how I fell headlong into malnutrition and crushing debt working and going to school last year? My story is by no means unusual. Have you met any lower-middle-class college students lately? I was a lower middle class college student until quite recently. In any case, my point is not that we spend as much on each college student as we would on each kid putting in his or her time, just that the overall cost would be defrayed by all the stuff we’d be able to cut. The General Accounting Office figured out sometime after the Gulf War that reintroducing the draft would require an increase in the defense budget of approximately $2-3 billions per annum. Obviously, that’s pretty much a drop in the bucket. In any case, this cost would be borne, if not reversed, by the domestic service programs that could then be created. It’s pretty fucking sad that New Orleans is still half a shanty town, two years after Katrina. Under national service, it would have been rebuilt long ago- if for no other reason than because these kids need something to do when they aren’t fighting wars. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2008, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/228 "2008-08-24T23:53:56Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] In any case, this cost would be borne, if not reversed, by the domestic service programs that could then be created. It’s pretty fucking sad that New Orleans is still half a shanty town, two years after Katrina. Under national service, it would have been rebuilt long ago [/QUOTE] Since, after all, there would be a pool of resources that could be tapped to the full extent George W. Bush considered worthwhile… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/229 "2008-08-25T00:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] Since, after all, there would be a pool of resources that could be tapped to the full extent George W. Bush considered worthwhile… :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Touche. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/230 "2008-08-25T19:58:37Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > China. Touche. > [@SteveMB](#): > > Since, after all, there would be a pool of resources that could be tapped to the full extent George W. Bush considered worthwhile… Not necessarily. A national service draft could easily funnel people into non-governmental nonprofits who don’t answer to the current administration in any meaningful way. In fact, I would think that a Republican administration would prefer just that. ---
**Author:** ![Flipshod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f19dbf/32.png) [@Flipshod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flipshod)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/231 "2008-08-26T15:51:00Z")
Can’t resist. H.L. Mencken on the draft: “One of the amusing by-products of war is its pricking of the fundamental democratic delusion. For years Homo boobus stalks the earth vaingloriously flapping his wings over his God-given rights, his inalienable freedom, his sublime equality to his masters. Then of a sudden he is thrust into a training camp, and discovers that he is a slave, after all— that even his life is not his own. One day he is the favorite of the Constitution and the peer of George Washington. The next day he is standing in line with a musket over his shoulder, and an officer is barking at him.” ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/232 "2008-08-26T16:18:36Z")
> [@](#): > > China. I’m not sure I follow the argument here entirely, but are you implying that China has conscription/national service? Because it does not, and has not since the communist takeover. Since the Chinese population is growing while it’s military is shrinking considerably, it would also be unlikely in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/233 "2008-08-26T16:30:28Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] I’m not sure I follow the argument here entirely, but are you implying that China has conscription/national service? Because it does not, and has not since the communist takeover. Since the Chinese population is growing while it’s military is shrinking considerably, it would also be unlikely in the future. [/QUOTE] > **[Conscription and armies](https://www.c3.hu/~farkashe/english/countries.htm)** > [@](#): > > In each year, male citizens reaching 18 are to be drafted for military service of 2 years. If not drafted immediately, they remain liable to draft until 22 years old. Female citizens of the same age range may also be drafted based on military demands. Full-time students are eligible for deferments. The conscription is selective and who is actually drafted is not known exactly. As Falun Gong is strictly banned, its members are barred from serving the military. > > For Chinese Special Administrative Regions (SARs) - Hong Kong and Macao - there is no conscription. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/234 "2008-08-26T16:44:46Z")
That is a quirk of translation. What it actually means is that the government has the legislative authority to draft citizens for military service. This has never actually occurred(to my knowledge, and if it has it would have been on a very small scale) and is unlikely to occur in the future. > **[People's Liberation Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army)** > > The People's Liberation Army (PLA) is the military wing of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the primary armed forces of the People's Republic of China (PRC). It consists of four services—Ground Force, Navy, Air Force, and Rocket Force—and four arms—Aerospace Force, Cyberspace Force, Information Support Force, and Joint Logistics Support Force. It operates under the CCP's absolute control and is led by the Central Military Commission (CMC) with its chairman as commander-in-chief. > The PLA... > [@](#): > > Military service is compulsory, in theory, for all men who attain the age of 18; women may register for duty in the medical, veterinary, and other technical services. \*\*However, a draft has never been enforced due to large numbers of volunteers. \*\*Demobilized servicemen are carried in a ready reserve, which is reinforced by a standby reserve of veterans and by the militia. A conversation with any Chinese male of military age, or hell, any Chinese male of any age will confirm this. If they have served in the military, then they were volunteers. The Republic of China (Taiwan) does maintain a large conscript army, something which mainlanders find quaint. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/235 "2008-08-26T17:13:42Z")
[Is McCain against _Roe v. Wade_ or not?](http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/from_the_rnc_podium_mccain_doe.html) Maybe it’s the ex-Clintonite’s gaffe and not his, but somebody is off-message (and if she learned the truth, would she switch back?). ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/236 "2008-08-26T19:42:36Z")
Should I rename this the [Smith Gaffe Thread](http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0808/The_GOPs_2008_nominee_isEldon_Smith.html?showall) > [@](#): > > In 1986, when then-Rep. McCain was running for the Senate seat vacated by Barry Goldwater, he quietly began remodeling a $500,000 house in central Phoenix owned by his wealthy father-in-law James Hensley. The $225,000 project – which included the construction of a 4,000-square-foot addition, swimming pool, jacuzzi, cabana and barbecue – held political peril for McCain, who was already fighting charges that he was as an opportunistic carpertbagger. > > The new house was located in Phoenix’s fourth congressional district – outside of the first district in Tempe which he represented at the time. > > AP caught wind of the work at 7110 North Central Ave. shortly before the general election and dispatched a reporter to examine blueprints at the planning department. They found the permit applicants were listed as Hensley and a mysterious “Mr. Smith.” > > The reporter tracked down McCain’s plumber, who told him he’d been told Mr. Smith’s first name was “Eldon.” > > Eldon Smith, it turned out, was John McCain. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/237 "2008-08-26T20:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Eldon Smith, it turned out, was John McCain. Eldon Smith _also_ happens to be a member of the [University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine](http://medicine.ucalgary.ca/node/845), and a **CANADIAN**. So not only is McCain using ALIASES, he has _dual citizenship_ and is thus _ineligible_ for election to the office of president. The possibility that the name swapping Mr. McCain might also betoken himself “Eldon John, Knight Bachelor of the British empire” simply boggles the mind. There just may be no end to the man’s perfidy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/238 "2008-08-26T21:15:54Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] That is a quirk of translation. What it actually means is that the government has the legislative authority to draft citizens for military service. This has never actually occurred(to my knowledge, and if it has it would have been on a very small scale) and is unlikely to occur in the future. [/QUOTE] Huh. Consider my ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/239 "2008-08-27T05:38:15Z")
My goodness, Senator McCain just can’t seem to turn around without sticking his $500 Ferragamo’s right up to his uvula… [Check out this enlightening DailyKos diary,](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/27/0050/93650/765/575892) wherein the venerable Senator makes an illegal campaign stop at an Arizona high school to introduce a Latino rapper, Daddy Yankee, to a crowd of screaming teenaged girls. A McCain staffer volunteers the information that the rapper’s song “Gasolina” is McCain’s “favorite.” Problem is that the song is all about fucking, and “gasolina” is Puerto Rican slang for sperm. Hmm. When they say McCain panders for votes, they sure ain’t kidding! 😃 Watch the video, it’s frigging priceless! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2008, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582/240 "2008-08-27T13:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=SmartAleq] A McCain staffer volunteers the information that the rapper’s song “Gasolina” is McCain’s “favorite.” [/QUOTE] That is awesome. Maybe he thinks it’s about oil prices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-gaffe-thread/452582.md?page=13)