# McCain Goes Over-the-Top (GI Bill) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375 "2008-05-23T16:34:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/1 "2008-05-23T16:34:18Z")
Obama criticized John McCain for his no-show on the GI Bill yesterday. Here are his comments: > [@](#): > > I respect sen. John McCain’s service to our country. He is one of those heroes of which I speak. But I can’t understand why he would line up behind the President in his opposition to this GI bill. > > I can’t believe why he believes it is too generous to our veterans. I could not disagree with him and the President more on this issue. There are many issues that lend themselves to partisan posturing but giving our veterans the chance to go to college should not be one of them. A fair, respectful criticism in my opinion. Now McCain would respond, as can be expected, in equally diplomatic and fair rhetorical style, right? Wrong: > [@](#): > > It is typical, but no less offensive that Senator Obama uses the Senate floor to take cheap shots at an opponent and easy advantage of an issue he has less than zero understanding of. Let me say first in response to Senator Obama, running for President is different than serving as President. The office comes with responsibilities so serious that the occupant can’t always take the politically easy route without hurting the country he is sworn to defend. Unlike Senator Obama, my admiration, respect and deep gratitude for America’s veterans is something more than a convenient campaign pledge. I think I have earned the right to make that claim. > > "When I was five years old, a car pulled up in front of our house in New London, Connecticut, and a Navy officer rolled down the window, and shouted at my father that the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor. My father immediately left for the submarine base where he was stationed. I rarely saw him again for four years. My grandfather, who commanded the fast carrier task force under Admiral Halsey, came home from the war exhausted from the burdens he had borne, and died the next day. I grew up in the Navy; served for twenty-two years as a naval officer; and, like Senator Webb, personally experienced the terrible costs war imposes on the veteran. The friendships I formed in war remain among the closest relationships in my life. The Navy is still the world I know best and love most. In Vietnam, where I formed the closest friendships of my life, some of those friends never came home to the country they loved so well . > > "But I am running for the office of Commander-in-Chief. That is the highest privilege in this country, and it imposes the greatest responsibilities. It would be easier politically for me to have joined Senator Webb in offering his legislation. More importantly, I feel just as he does, that we owe veterans the respect and generosity of a great nation because no matter how generously we show our gratitude it will never compensate them fully for all the sacrifices they have borne on our behalf. > > "Senators Graham, Burr and I have offered legislation that would provide veterans with a substantial increase in educational benefits. The bill we have sponsored would increase monthly education benefits to $1500; eliminate the $1200 enrollment fee; and offer a $1000 annually for books and supplies. Importantly, we would allow veterans to transfer those benefits to their spouses or dependent children or use a part of them to pay down existing student loans. We also increase benefits to the Guard and Reserve, and even more generously to those who serve in the Selected Reserve. > > "I know that my friend and fellow veteran, Senator Jim Webb, an honorable man who takes his responsibility to veterans very seriously, has offered legislation with very generous benefits. I respect and admire his position, and I would never suggest that he has anything other than the best of intentions to honor the service of deserving veterans. Both Senator Webb and I are united in our deep appreciation for the men and women who risk their lives so that the rest of us may be secure in our freedom. And I take a backseat to no one in my affection, respect and devotion to veterans. And I will not accept from Senator Obama, who did not feel it was his responsibility to serve our country in uniform, any lectures on my regard for those who did. > > "The most important difference between our two approaches is that Senator Webb offers veterans who served one enlistment the same benefits as those offered veterans who have re-enlisted several times. Our bill has a sliding scale that offers generous benefits to all veterans, but increases those benefits according to the veteran’s length of service. I think it is important to do that because, otherwise, we will encourage more people to leave the military after they have completed one enlistment. At a time when the United States military is fighting in two wars, and as we finally are beginning the long overdue and very urgent necessity of increasing the size of the Army and Marine Corps, one study estimates that Senator Webb’s bill will reduce retention rates by 16%. > > "Most worrying to me, is that by hurting retention we will reduce the numbers of men and women who we train to become the backbone of all the services, the noncommissioned officer. In my life, I have learned more from noncommissioned officers I have known and served with than anyone else outside my family. And in combat, no one is more important to their soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen, and to the officers who command them, than the sergeant and petty officer. They are very hard to replace. Encouraging people not to choose to become noncommissioned officers would hurt the military and our country very badly. As I said, the office of President, which I am seeking, is a great honor, indeed, but it imposes serious responsibilities. How faithfully the President discharges those responsibilities will determine whether he or she deserves the honor. I can only tell you I intend to deserve the honor if I am fo rtunate to receive it, even if it means I must take politically unpopular positions at times and disagree with people for whom I have the highest respect and affection. > > “Perhaps, if Senator Obama would take the time and trouble to understand this issue he would learn to debate an honest disagreement respectfully. But, as he always does, he prefers impugning the motives of his opponent, and exploiting a thoughtful difference of opinion to advance his own ambitions. If that is how he would behave as President, the country would regret his election.” This bill passed with 75 votes from the Senate, by the way. My issue though is not with whether or not this bill is a good idea or not. It is with the temperment and demeanor with which McCain responded. It is patualtn, out ofd proportion and stupid. It is not the reaction one would expect from a President-to-be. the irony is staggering, as McCain’s rant is arguing that he has the better judgement to be President, yet the out-of-proprtion rant, almost incomprehensible in it’s vitriol, shows me someone who does not have the temperament to be President. ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/2 "2008-05-23T17:13:45Z")
I agree. I think it is unfortunate he chose to bracket what could be described as a reasonable argument with personal shots at Obama. I wish he could have extended the same courtesy to Obama that he was given. I thought this was interesting too. > [@](#): > > “I will not accept from Senator Obama, who did not feel it was his responsibility to serve our country in uniform, any lectures on my regard for those who did,” the Arizona senator said in a harshly worded statement issued Thursday. So I guess there will be no discussions whatsoever about any military issues in the Presidential debates? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/3 "2008-05-23T17:19:43Z")
> [@](#): > > “Perhaps, if Senator Obama would take the time and trouble to understand this issue he would learn to debate an honest disagreement respectfully. But, as he always does, he prefers impugning the motives of his opponent, and exploiting a thoughtful difference of opinion to advance his own ambitions. If that is how he would behave as President, the country would regret his election.” Perhaps McCain had another of his ‘slip ups’ here, and was really talking about president Bush? _That_ shoe is a much better fit. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/4 "2008-05-23T17:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] …My issue though is not with whether or not this bill is a good idea or not. It is with the temperment and demeanor with which McCain responded. It is patualtn, out ofd proportion and stupid. … [/QUOTE] Please clarify what you meant to say in the last sentence quoted. I don’t think you meant “patualtn.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/5 "2008-05-23T17:23:48Z")
This isn’t the first time Obama and McCain had clashed, and it seems that McCain felt here that Obama was impugning his commitment to the millitary, which is what Obama did sort of suggest in his statement. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/6 "2008-05-23T17:24:17Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Please clarify what you meant to say in the last sentence quoted. I don’t think you meant “patualtn.” [/QUOTE] Yikes! I think I meant to type petulant, but even I am not sure. Yikes again! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/7 "2008-05-23T17:25:04Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Please clarify what you meant to say in the last sentence quoted. I don’t think you meant “patualtn.” [/QUOTE] Oh, it’s incredibly patuialtn. It’s the most patualtn statement I’ve read in a long while. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/8 "2008-05-23T17:27:09Z")
I don’t really see it as that big a deal. Military service and matters is one of the areas where Mccain destroys Obama in credibility. Gettings into that arena for Obama is just throwing McCain a nice juicy Gopherball which he will hammer everytime. Hopefully Obama will learn the lesson of expediancy and not try to start that fight again. If McCain was stupid enough to start talking about the projects of Chicago then Obama would(and should) respond with the same tone of righteous outrage. > [@](#): > > So I guess there will be no discussions whatsoever about any military issues in the Presidential debates? Not if Obama is smart. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/9 "2008-05-23T17:28:21Z")
Obama made a seriously cheap attack, there. We blame Republicans for questioning people’s patriotism and loyalty whenever it suits their agenda, but Obama did the _exact same thing_ there by questioning McCain’s support of veterans. I’d be extremely pissed too, if I were McCain. I’d say he won that little exchange, and hopefully Obama will learn to knock it off with the “you’re not patriotic enough” nonsense. I haven’t seen too much of this from Obama, which is a good sign. Hopefully he got scalded enough to get the message that comments like that are off limits. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/10 "2008-05-23T18:32:29Z")
[QUOTE=wolfman] I don’t really see it as that big a deal. Military service and matters is one of the areas where Mccain destroys Obama in credibility. Gettings into that arena for Obama is just throwing McCain a nice juicy Gopherball which he will hammer everytime. Hopefully Obama will learn the lesson of expediancy and not try to start that fight again. [/QUOTE] I disagree. I think Obama has to keep hitting on how Republican rhetoric doesn’t match their actions. He has to get the people thinking, “if McCain support the troops so much, why is he against the GI Bill,” and “if he’s such a military expert, why’d he support this Iraq disaster?” He’s gotta knock down some of McCain’s credibility on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/11 "2008-05-23T18:42:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] Obama made a seriously cheap attack, there. We blame Republicans for questioning people’s patriotism and loyalty whenever it suits their agenda, but Obama did the _exact same thing_ there by questioning McCain’s support of veterans. I’d be extremely pissed too, if I were McCain. I’d say he won that little exchange, and hopefully Obama will learn to knock it off with the “you’re not patriotic enough” nonsense. I haven’t seen too much of this from Obama, which is a good sign. Hopefully he got scalded enough to get the message that comments like that are off limits. [/QUOTE] What goes around comes around. It’s not as if they’re not going to be doing more and more from now until it’s over. I agree it is an issue Obama needs to make and it’s a valid one. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/12 "2008-05-23T18:58:26Z")
If this is a sign of how the discourse is going to go, we’re in for a long season. Obama’s provocation (and that’s what it was) was savvy and restrained. McCain’s response is personal and angry. If you want an angry President, that’s certainly what McCain will be- and I think a lot of people do want an angry, “ballsy” President. So he will shore up his support on that front. But there’s certainly a meme building that McCain has a temper, and his advisors would do well to push him away from things like this. If he wishes to make the valid point that Obama has never served in the military, I think a more dismissive tone would suit him better. To be honest, I think we lucked out on the Republican side this cycle. I think McCain is a decent guy and is kowtowing to the right because he feels it is the only way to win. If he is in office in January, I won’t throw up. But indulging his temper will not be good for this campaign. I think the press likes it, like a father feels (perhaps privately) when his son bloodies another kid up. They kind of like that he says stuff that no studied press manager would say, and they softpedal him for that reason. Eventually, though, the angry thing will bubble up beyond the late night shows and it will be Al Gore all over again. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/13 "2008-05-23T19:08:15Z")
[QUOTE=davidw] I disagree. I think Obama has to keep hitting on how Republican rhetoric doesn’t match their actions. He has to get the people thinking, “if McCain support the troops so much, why is he against the GI Bill,” and “if he’s such a military expert, why’d he support this Iraq disaster?” He’s gotta knock down some of McCain’s credibility on the issue. [/QUOTE] Perception is more important than reality. You can’t attack the credibility without it being spinable into attacking McCain as a military man, which turns into a soundbite that is anti-military. It’s best to avoid the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/14 "2008-05-23T19:11:50Z")
[QUOTE=wolfman] I don’t really see it as that big a deal. Military service and matters is one of the areas where Mccain destroys Obama in credibility. Gettings into that arena for Obama is just throwing McCain a nice juicy Gopherball which he will hammer everytime. Hopefully Obama will learn the lesson of expediancy and not try to start that fight again. [/QUOTE] Right, because only Bush can question a war hero’s credibility and win an election. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/15 "2008-05-23T19:12:11Z")
[QUOTE=wolfman] Perception is more important than reality. You can’t attack the credibility without it being spinable into attacking McCain as a military man, which turns into a soundbite that is anti-military. It’s best to avoid the issue. [/QUOTE] I say it’s better to take the risk to try to change the perception, rather than cede the issue to McCain. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/16 "2008-05-23T19:16:21Z")
[QUOTE=wolfman] Military service and matters is one of the areas where Mccain destroys Obama in credibility . . . . Hopefully Obama will learn the lesson of expediancy and not try to start that fight again . . . . Not if Obama is smart. [/QUOTE] Are you saying that, because of his military service and heroism, McCain can’t ever be wrong and Obama can’t ever be right? Do you think military issues are not going to come up in the Obama/McCain debates in the fall? [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] This isn’t the first time Obama and McCain had clashed, and it seems that McCain felt here that Obama was impugning his commitment to the millitary, which is what Obama did sort of suggest in his statement. [/QUOTE] How is the following impugning McCain’s service at all? He comment was on point and about the issue at hand. "I respect [S]en. John McCain’s service to our country. He is one of those heroes of which I speak. But I can’t understand why he would line up behind the President in his opposition to this GI bill. I can’t believe why he believes it is too generous to our veterans. I could not disagree with him and the President more on this issue. There are many issues that lend themselves to partisan posturing but giving our veterans the chance to go to college should not be one of them." ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/17 "2008-05-23T19:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] How is the following impugning McCain’s service at all? He comment was on point and about the issue at hand. "I respect [S]en. John McCain’s service to our country. He is one of those heroes of which I speak. But I can’t understand why he would line up behind the President in his opposition to this GI bill. I can’t believe why he believes it is too generous to our veterans. I could not disagree with him and the President more on this issue. There are many issues that lend themselves to partisan posturing but giving our veterans the chance to go to college should not be one of them." [/QUOTE] In that quote? Obama is claiming that McCain’s opposition is due to “partisan posturing”, that the reason he opposes the bill is because “he believes it is too generous to our veterans” and that McCain doesn’t want to give “our veterans the chance to go to college”. All this, because McCain has his own version of the GI bill that he prefers to Webb’s version. The quote doesn’t impugn McCain’s service, but it says that McCain doesn’t care about soldiers and is opposing the bill to score political points. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/18 "2008-05-23T19:26:16Z")
Obama doesn’t need to attack McCain’s status as a military person. He just needs to emphasize that McCain is Bush v2, as he did in the OP quote. He’s in lockstep with Bush, and we can see where Bush has gotten us. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/19 "2008-05-23T19:26:34Z")
War is what happens when diplomacy fails. These Keystone Kops running our country go straight to war and claim diplomacy weakens us and strengthens the enemy. How fundamentally wrong can anyone be.? Yet somehow they claim expertise in international affairs. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375/20 "2008-05-23T19:28:11Z")
I don’t think McCain’s response sounded particularly over-the-top or intemperate, or even “harshly worded”, but it does sound as if he’s got his back up a little about being criticized by a civilian on military matters. I think he ought to get over it; you can’t be thin-skinned if you’re running for President. I also think Obama was a bit unfair to McCain in what he said. Strategically speaking, as an Obama supporter, I _want_ Obama to include military issues in his criticism of McCain. He just needs to stay away from implying that McCain is unpatriotic or doesn’t care about the troops. Those are cheap shots anyway. If he’s got substantive criticisms of McCain on defense-related issues he should make them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-goes-over-the-top-gi-bill/450375.md?page=2)