# McCain not as forked as the McCain Forked thread, but still forked **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951 "2008-10-08T03:49:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/161 "2008-10-11T01:38:51Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > I think he recognized that those people at the gathering were speaking out of fear and ignorance that his campaign has, if not created, at least fostered and relied upon, he was chagrined by it, and he made a decent effort at correcting it. I’m not saying he’s going to be all sunshine and lollipops for the next few weeks. He may in fact turn out to be a bigger dick than he has been so far. I guess it’s my curse occasionally to empathize with someone even while recognizing his dickishness. I think he recognized that his colleagues were turning away from him and denouncing him. I think he recognized the tack he’s on to stoke hatred in the base leads straight to defeat. This, IMO, is simply yet another attempt at pragmatism. I used to admire John McCain, but it’s a little too late for contrition now. You reap what you sow, buddy. Anyway, tomorrow, with the way McCain’s conducted his campaign thus far, Mr. Hyde may very well make another appearance. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/162 "2008-10-11T01:46:28Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Was that statement prepared before or after the video? I don’t know which came first, honestly. I do know that the statement came after the Secret Service had to investigate a man shouting “Kill him!” at a Palin rally. So it’s not as though McCain had no idea what was happening and what he was encouraging. He knew. The media knew. Anybody paying attention for the past week knew. But it’s not polling well, so now he’s going to try to distance himself, even if he doesn’t lift a single finger to see to it that the incitement actually stops. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/163 "2008-10-11T01:58:22Z")
How low do you have to sink to make the decision that your campaign will appeal to the fears and prejudices of highly ignorant people in order to try to win an election? ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/164 "2008-10-11T02:04:41Z")
I read at fivethirtyeight that Norm Coleman canceled his appearance at a McCain rally. Newsweek poll came out that has Obama at +11. I’m giving Democrats credit from not being cocky about this yet. Everyone is still cautious about predicting an Obama win. I think there is nothing McCain himself can do now to change things around. Only an outside event can change things. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/165 "2008-10-11T05:23:15Z")
Taking bets: how long will it be before he changes his mind on this too? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/166 "2008-10-11T07:08:52Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Taking bets: how long will it be before he changes his mind on this too? [That’s a sucker bet, babe:](http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/mccain_campaign_goes_after_mic.php) > [@](#): > > **McCain Campaign Now Attacks _Michelle_ Obama Over Ayers** > By Greg Sargent and Eric Kleefeld - October 10, 2008, 4:58PM > > The McCain campaign is now broadening their attack on Obama’s past association with William Ayers to include Michelle Obama – even though McCain has repeatedly said spouses should be off limits during the campaign. > > The attack? Bernardine Dohrn, Ayers’ wife and fellow former Weatherman, went to work in 1984 for the major Chicago-based national law firm of Sidley & Austin, and three years later, Michelle joined the mega-firm as well. > > That’s the entire attack. We wish we were joking. But we aren’t. > > [snip] > > The attack on Michelle came on a McCain conference call with reporters this afternoon featuring John Murtagh, who has been hitting Obama over the Weather Underground’s attack on his family’s home back in 1970. Murtagh noted that Dohrn and Michelle Obama had both worked at the firm starting in the late 1980s. > > The firm’s Chicago office currently employs more than 500 lawyers. > > Murtagh didn’t even bother alleging that the two even knew each other, instead suggesting that they _might_ have. If so, he said, the Obamas have known the two longer than suspected. > > “If it is true” that the two women knew each other, Murtagh said, “the relationship is almost a decade older than Senator Obama has acknowledged. And that can very easily be resolved by Senator Obama, by Mrs. Obama, by Mr. Ayers and by Ms. Dohrn.” > > “And incidentally, I would emphasize that we’ve all been focusing on Senator Obama,” said Murtagh. “I think we need to speak to his wife.” As TPM notes, this isn’t a surrogate talking off the cuff; Murtagh was reading from a prepared statement on an official McCain campaign conference call. There’s a link to the audio of the thing on the TPM page I’ve linked to. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/167 "2008-10-11T13:49:30Z")
I think we’re well beyond the point where even an election-eve video by Osama bin Laden can change the dynamic here. I think a terrorist attack on the U.S. with loss of life or major property damage, or a major terrorist attack on a U.S. embassy or a European city, is the only possible remaining game-changer. And I’d give Obama a better-than-even chance of winning, even then: he’s done a great job of defining himself as the one who’d stay calm and keep his wits about him in a crisis, while McCain has done a great job, however unintentionally, of defining himself as the guy who’d go off half-cocked. A terrorist attack would move a lot of votes from blue to red, almost instinctually, but I think Obama’s built a very good perceptual firewall to limit the damage that would deal to his campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Rolken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Rolken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rolken)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/168 "2008-10-11T14:14:30Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > I’m giving Democrats credit from not being cocky about this yet. Everyone is still cautious about predicting an Obama win. I think there is nothing McCain himself can do now to change things around. Only an outside event can change things. I haven’t seen the graph in [this article](http://stateoftheunion.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/behind-mccains-fall/) linked yet, but the correlation between McCain’s fortunes and the stock market is quite striking. It seems to me that Obama’s positioning on middle class woes and McCain’s complete failure to effectively respond have all but guaranteed the outcome of the race. He tried to mix things up at the town hall debate with his new mortgage proposal, but the presentation was so feeble and wishy-washy (if you noticed it at all) that it was pretty clear that his heart wasn’t in it. Barring a deus ex machina in the form of a terrorist attack or sudden magical full recovery of the economic crisis, perhaps he could pull out another Palinesque gimmick and manage to make its popularity spike coincide with the election, but I’d hate to have to bank on that as a McCain supporter. ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/169 "2008-10-11T14:16:21Z")
Telling you, “the fundamentals of the economy are strong” was when he lost the election. Nothing he could say after that would have any credibility. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/170 "2008-10-11T14:24:05Z")
That video won back a bit of the respect i used to have for McCain, not all of it but some. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/171 "2008-10-11T15:17:16Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > That video won back a bit of the respect i used to have for McCain, not all of it but some. Not me. Now, if he had done what he did PLUS announce that he’s pulling all his ads about Ayers effective immediately, maybe then I’d consider cutting him some slack. Even then, he should also make an apology, both to Obama for the slurs and to the American people for breaking his word when he said a couple months ago that he wouldn’t tolerate any of this and would run a respectful campain. ---
**Author:** ![Rolken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Rolken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rolken)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/172 "2008-10-11T16:08:35Z")
I would have more respect for his supposed about-face if he wasn’t stoking the fires and continuing to do so. And if he was truly unaware of the bigotry that his campaign’s actions were feeding into, then he’s a myopic fool, which isn’t much better. I don’t imagine too many of the people feeling sorry for McCain would feel sympathetic towards Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/173 "2008-10-11T16:23:14Z")
Don’t let yourselves be distracted. This is what we’re (still) up against: [The Sidewalk to Nowhere](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/174 "2008-10-11T16:23:41Z")
> [@](#): > > As TPM notes, this isn’t a surrogate talking off the cuff; Murtagh was reading from a prepared statement on an official McCain campaign conference call. There’s a link to the audio of the thing on the TPM page I’ve linked to. That’s _insane._ If Sidley in Chicago has 500 lawyers, they probably have 1000+ staff overall. Saying that there’s any kind of connection between two people who work in that office is like saying I am connected to the Chicago Democratic machine because I once ended up on the elevator with Bill Daley when I worked in the same building as he did (which did actually happen - the elevator part, I mean). ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/175 "2008-10-11T16:59:32Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > “He’s an Arab”? > > _ **“HE’S AN ARAB”?** _ > > There are no words. I guess it would just be quibbling, at this point, to say that one can be a decent family man, and an Arab. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/176 "2008-10-11T16:59:33Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > I am connected to the Chicago Democratic machine because I once ended up on the elevator with Bill Daley when I worked in the same building as he did (which did actually happen - the elevator part, I mean). Why won’t **Eva Luna** be honest about her past? She admits to having ties to the politically corrupt Chigaco machine! What do we know about her husband? Why won’t she talk about the allegations that she kicks puppies? Who is the _real_ **Eva Luna**? My friends, the fate of Doperville is at stake. We must know the answers to these troubling questions! ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/177 "2008-10-11T17:03:49Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Don’t let yourselves be distracted. This is what we’re (still) up against: > > [The Sidewalk to Nowhere](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us) Dear God, sometimes I’m very happy to be a Bostonian. Around my neighborhood “commie faggot” is more likely to be one’s description of themself than hurled as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/178 "2008-10-11T17:07:11Z")
I love the cognitive dissonance of people walking into a McCain rally, presumably on a weekday, yelling “get a job!” at people standing outside it holding protest signs. And this is your job, then? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/179 "2008-10-11T17:27:58Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Why won’t **Eva Luna** be honest about her past? > She admits to having ties to the politically corrupt Chigaco machine! > What do we know about her husband? > Why won’t she talk about the allegations that she kicks puppies? > Who is the _real_ **Eva Luna**? > > My friends, the fate of Doperville is at stake. We must know the answers to these troubling questions! Now that I think about it, Sidley’s Chicago office was also in that building at the time (they are now across the street). That means that both Bill Daley and I are directly connected to the Weathermen. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951/180 "2008-10-11T17:44:47Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I guess it would just be quibbling, at this point, to say that one can be a decent family man, and an Arab. Of course. If you watch McCain in the video, he’s clearly frustrated by the woman. He’s compassionate when she says she can’t trust him… and then when she says “Arab” he shakes his head in obvious dismay and reaches for the mike. He didn’t mean to imply Arabs can’t be decent family men; he’s dismissing her as quickly as possible and refusing to play ball. I don’t think McCain is a racist. Now that his campaign’s in terrible shape and defeat looks likelier than ever, his supporters are going nuts and I got the sense in that speech that he was suddenly alarmed at what was going on. Whether that’s something he’s realized himself or something his handlers are telling them, his contempt for the “he’s an Arab” woman looked very genuine, and that came AFTER he had twice said “Obama’s a decent person.” The McCain campaign can perhaps be blamed for some of this, but they’ve been no worse than the Clinton campaign was in terms of using veiled racism and, in any case, you could make a strong argument that **a black guy winning a Presidential campaign this late in the game would inevitably have resulted in this sort of ugliness** , irrespective of what the two campaigns had said. There is a lot of hidden and not-so-hidden racism out there. I honestly think this is bothering McCain. He may share in the blame for it or maybe not, but he looked at that event like a man who was not at all comfortable with his own audience’s position. The cat’s out of the bag and he can’t decide whether to shoot it or just run out of the room. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-not-as-forked-as-the-mccain-forked-thread-but-still-forked/466951.md?page=10)