# McCain/Palin: Lying Far Beyond the Palin **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114 "2008-09-11T16:38:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/1 "2008-09-11T16:38:30Z")
One interesting thing about this election is a difference in the press coverage. This time around, it seems that many in the media are actually paying attention to the lying done by the Republican ticket. Also interesting is that writers, and the Democratic campaign, have been more frequently using the actual word “lie,” rather than some more pleasant sounding euphemism. In part, the persistence of the McCain/Palin campaign to repeat lies about her history with earmarks sort of forces the media’s hand. However, this seems to be the height of lying hubris though: The McCain campaign has been called out by [Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) for lying about … [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org). [FactCheck.org: McCain-Palin Distorts Our Finding: Those attacks on Palin that we debunked didn’t come from Obama.](http://www.newsweek.com/id/158265/output/print) If you’re going to insist upon running a campaign of lies, I suppose you might not care what you lie about. Still, the organizations dedicated to checking up on these kind of things are very likely to take note of it and call you out. Given that they persist in lying about the bridge-related earmarks, and now lying about [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org), can it be concluded that they just don’t care whether they spout obvious lies? Is the media really reacting differently to the lies of the Republicans this time around? Will help to minimize the effectiveness of the Rovian strategy? Since we’ve seen even some of the right-wingers here express concern or dismay at the lying and misleading tactics of the McCain campaign, does this portend better days ahead, in terms of diminished use of Rovian strategies by Republican campaigns? I’m sure some of this will depend upon upcoming poll numbers and the ultimate outcome of the election, but when so many conservatives go on record, during an election, calling out the Republicans for lying and deceit, it seems like there is some sort of change in the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/2 "2008-09-11T16:49:31Z")
Well, thou shall not lie obviously comes with an (\*) next to it for some Christians. I suppose it’s ok to lie if you are a republican candiate as long as your manwoman team get elected. I see a change as well in the political air surrounding the BS coming from the republican side. Why don’t more people care? I don’t know, I wish I did. Rovian strategies are failing because of Obama’s reactions to them. He doesn’t sit on his laurels waiting to respond. He immediatly refutes, and lashes back. Something Kerry did not do. Rovian politicking only works if people have enough time to let the rovian idea steep for a little while. Obama doesn’t let that happen. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/3 "2008-09-11T16:58:59Z")
One (frequently successful) strategy is to lie frequently, and tell as big a lie as possible. As long as a compliant media simply reports, without delving into the facts (or tries to present “both sides”), them the vast majority of the public will not look any deeper. “Huh” they will say, “So Obama actually wants to teach sex to kindergarteners. I’m not going to vote for him”. Looking into the nuance of a state bill is just WAYYY too much effort. Lying works. The bigger the better. The more the better. We’ve learned (at least the right has learned) over the past few years that lying and smearing and flinging filth works really really well, and is the ticket to winning elections. Sad to say, but I think the only way for Obama to win is if there is a concerted effort (kept well insulated from the 'official" candidate and advisors of course), that tells huge outrageous lies about McCain/Palin. McCain bombed innocent children in Vietnam. McCain has a black child out of wedlock (oops that one has been used already). Palin once killed a man in Vegas just to watch him die. Screw the truth. Lying is what wins. Americans like winners. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/4 "2008-09-11T17:06:57Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > I see a change as well in the political air surrounding the BS coming from the republican side. Why don’t more people care? I don’t know, I wish I did. I’m not seeing it. The MSM will point out some of the shady messages but it is just reporting and quickly fades away. IIRC the Swiftboat allegations were debunked by the MSM…fat lot of good it did Kerry. Maybe I am just expecting too much. Some sort of outrage over _overt_ manipulation of the facts and the media. The MSM needs to start busting candidates _hard_ over clearly misleading messages that have little to no basis in fact. Granted there is a lot of gray area in the above but you generally know it when you see it and journalists are discerning enough to spot such shenanigans. When spin goes too far, whichever side does it, they need to be called to the mat on it and made to answer for it. Anything else and I fear the politics of outright lies will continue and I see that as a bad thing for our country. The MSM is a supposed guardian of democracy and they have been failing miserably the last several years. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/5 "2008-09-11T17:19:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’m not seeing it. The MSM will point out some of the shady messages but it is just reporting and quickly fades away. IIRC the Swiftboat allegations were debunked by the MSM…fat lot of good it did Kerry. Actually, it seemed to me that it took quite a long time for the mainstream media to draw any conclusions about the controversy. In fact, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere here, the reason I terminated my membership with NPR was that they described John Kerry’s service in Viet Nam as “controversial,” and that was well after the smear first started. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/6 "2008-09-11T17:21:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The MSM is a supposed guardian of democracy and they have been failing miserably the last several years. I don’t think you’re right about this anymore. The media is a business. They do not care anymore about quaint ideas like “being a guardian of democracy”. They care about money. The bottom line. ROI. Let’s face it - controversy sells. Lies and people’s reaction to lies are interesting. Mud-slinging and bad behaviour sells. I greatly fear that in the future, we will be reduced to voting based upon which one of the presidential candidates shows her underwear more when exiting a limo. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/7 "2008-09-11T18:16:10Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > Rovian strategies are failing because of Obama’s reactions to them. He doesn’t sit on his laurels waiting to respond. He immediatly refutes, and lashes back. Something Kerry did not do. Rovian politicking only works if people have enough time to let the rovian idea steep for a little while. Obama doesn’t let that happen. It’s not only that he’s coming out strong against the smears. It’s that he’s pulling a page from Reagan. Remember the slightly snarky “There you go again?” He’s doing the same thing…taking something that’s been calculated by the McCain campaign to enrage Obama and his followers and basically turning it into a joke against his opponent. Obama is chuckling a bit as he responds to this stuff in stump speeches. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/8 "2008-09-11T18:23:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It’s not only that he’s coming out strong against the smears. It’s that he’s pulling a page from Reagan. Remember the slightly snarky “There you go again?” He’s doing the same thing…taking something that’s been calculated by the McCain campaign to enrage Obama and his followers and basically turning it into a joke against his opponent. Obama is chuckling a bit as he responds to this stuff in stump speeches. And it’s working, Obama is edging ahead in key states. Namely [Ohio](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5778796&page=1). This bump the GOP has gotten from Palin, is just that…a bump. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/9 "2008-09-11T18:27:35Z")
Elections are won in the middle, and the middle is seeing commercials. They aren’t paying attention to news coverage of commercials. That is why the McCain Palin camp is doing it, because it works. Make the big lies, that makes the impact. The debunking of the big lie doesn’t make as much impact to those only marginally paying attention. apropos of nothing, Larry Craig has been in the local news, and NOW I remember where I had seen Sarah Palin’s glasses before. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/10 "2008-09-11T18:48:04Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > apropos of nothing, Larry Craig has been in the local news, and NOW I remember where I had seen Sarah Palin’s glasses before. Peeking under the bottom of the men’s room stall? ETA: _snerk_ I just remembered where you are after posting that, too… ---
**Author:** ![counsel\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@counsel\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/counsel_wolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/11 "2008-09-11T19:06:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > One (frequently successful) strategy is to lie frequently, and tell as big a lie as possible. As long as a compliant media simply reports, without delving into the facts (or tries to present “both sides”), them the vast majority of the public will not look any deeper. > > “Huh” they will say, “So Obama actually wants to teach sex to kindergarteners. I’m not going to vote for him”. Looking into the nuance of a state bill is just WAYYY too much effort. > > Lying works. The bigger the better. The more the better. We’ve learned (at least the right has learned) over the past few years that lying and smearing and flinging filth works really really well, and is the ticket to winning elections. I think this is the most cogent analysis of the current trends in politics (not just in America). The initial controversy gets the coverage and is what people remember, they don’t remember the backdowns and longwinded proofs of incorrectness that emerge a week later. The issue is twofold, lying partially with the media and partially with the attention span of the public. Blaming the politicians for running campaign strategies that work is like prohibition, it doesn’t work because the motivation and reward for doing it will always be there. It’s my contention however that the first past the post nature of American politics exacerbates the situation. If people sick of corruption were to campaign for only one thing, it should be proportional representation. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Palin once killed a man in Vegas just to watch him die. That’s clearly a lie, it was in Reno. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/12 "2008-09-11T19:16:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > In fact, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere here, the reason I terminated my membership with NPR was that they described John Kerry’s service in Viet Nam as “controversial,” and that was well after the smear first started. The media has a lazy tendency to strike a post of “fairness” by “presenting both sides” without regard to the question of whether one side has facts and the other side has only bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/13 "2008-09-12T03:01:47Z")
Its so ironic. Al Gore was absolutely eviserated by the media in 2000 as a serial liar, when it was the media itself lying about what he did or did not say. John McCain and his vice-bimbo are repeatedly lying through their teeth on a daily basis and seem to be suffering no consequences. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/14 "2008-09-12T13:31:08Z")
It confuses (and saddens) me so. It seems so regular now. The McCain camp tosses out some unexplained sound bite critical of Obama/dems, immediately followed bu Obama calmly and lucidly explaining why that is either incorrect or misleading, or of insignificant importance to so many other issues. His approach and abilities continue to impress me - tho I have long been a strong supporter. But it makes me wonder why EVERYONE can’t see how much more desireable his approach is. Then I hear of the number of folk who dislike him because he is too intellectual. 😕 Yeah - no reason to want the most powerful man in the world to be TOO smart. I fear we will likely get another leader who is exactly what we deserve. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/15 "2008-09-12T16:36:01Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Then I hear of the number of folk who dislike him because he is too intellectual. 😕 Yeah - no reason to want the most powerful man in the world to be TOO smart. I don’t want the pilot of my airplane to be some educated _smartypants_! I want him to be a guy I could sit and have a beer with! ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/16 "2008-09-12T16:48:37Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > I don’t want the pilot of my airplane to be some educated _smartypants_! I want him to be a guy I could sit and have a beer with! Hell, I want to have a beer with the pilot before our flight takes off! Roger Ebert had a decent [column](http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/1156080,091008ebertpalin.article) on Palin yesterday. I liked this bit: > [@Roger Ebert](#): > > I would also want someone who didn’t make a teeny little sneer when referring to “people who go to the Ivy League.” When I was a teen I dreamed of going to Harvard, but my dad, an electrician, told me, “Boy, we don’t have the money. Thank your lucky stars you were born in Urbana and can go to the University of Illinois right here in town.” So I did, very happily. Although Palin gets laughs when she mentions the “elite” Ivy League, she sure did attend the heck out of college. > > Five different schools in six years. What was that about? > > \ > > But some people like that. She’s never traveled to Europe, Asia, Africa, South America or Down Under? That makes her like them. She didn’t go to Harvard? Good for her! There a lot of hockey moms who haven’t seen London, but most of them would probably love to, if they had the dough. And they’d be proud if one of their kids won a scholarship to Harvard. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/17 "2008-09-14T17:57:25Z")
More and more seem to be taking note of the extreme mendacity of the McCain campaign. At the Washington Monthly and Mother Jones, they’re loosely keeping track of those who used to be supportive of McCain who are now finding him too deceitful. They have dubbed this the Enough Club. > **[The “Enough” Club](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2008/09/enough-club/)** > > THE "ENOUGH" CLUB....Michael Kinsley is a liberal, but he's about as moderate and contrarian a liberal as you're likely to find. After a lie or five too many from the McCain campaign, however, he's finally had enough:Maybe when this is... > [@](#): > > So how many people have joined the “Enough” club? It only counts if they sort of liked McCain in the first place, so folks like Krugman and Harold Meyerson don’t count. Off the top of my head I count eight and a half: Kinsley. Friedman. Mallaby. Joe Klein. Dionne. Marcus. Halperin. Herbert. Brooks seems like he might be getting there. Who else? [Steve Benen](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_09/014715.php) finds another example in Steve Chapman of the Chicago Tribune: > [@](#): > > Why does McCain insist on running such a mendacious campaign? There is plenty an honest conservative might say in opposition to Obama… But McCain has concluded that a fact-based case about Obama isn’t enough to prevail in November. So he has chosen to smear his opponent with ridiculous claims that he thinks the American people are gullible enough to believe. At some point soon, this has to catch up with McCain, right? The false claims of mendacity against Al Gore were so stupid and trivial that they hardly compare, yet they appeared to influce the election. When will it begin to damage McCain? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/18 "2008-09-14T18:24:18Z")
Add another name to that list … Karl Rove: [Link](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/14/rove-some-mccain-ads-dont-pass-100-percent-truth-test/) > [@](#): > > Former Bush adviser Karl Rove suggested Sunday that John McCain had gone “one step too far” in some of his recent ads attacking Barack Obama. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/19 "2008-09-14T18:37:12Z")
Whats that noise? It sounds like a rip in the fabric of the space-time continuum… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114/20 "2008-09-14T18:48:52Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Add another name to that list … Karl Rove: > [Link](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/14/rove-some-mccain-ads-dont-pass-100-percent-truth-test/) That’s kind of like being told that you might want to cut back on the tweaking and boozing…by Amy Winehouse. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-palin-lying-far-beyond-the-palin/463114.md?page=2)