# McCain says US Constitution establishes "Christian Nation" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207 "2007-10-01T22:58:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Raza](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raza/32/213_2.png) [@Raza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raza)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/1 "2007-10-01T22:58:15Z")
Story here: [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/01/mccain.christian.nation/index.html) > [@John McCain](#): > > I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation The article also notes that “55 percent of Americans believe the U.S. Constitution establishes a Christian nation” (no cite given in the article). Note that he isn’t saying that “most Americans then and now are Christian, so we are a de-facto Christian nation”, he’s saying the Constitution actually establishes the US as a Christian nation, in a legal sense. I’ll admit I’m not a Constitutional scholar, but Lordy…I don’t see how anyone can state this as a matter-of-fact. Did I miss an Article? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/2 "2007-10-01T23:04:25Z")
Man, he is _really_ getting desperate. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/3 "2007-10-01T23:08:04Z")
[QUOTE=Raza] he’s saying the Constitution actually establishes the US as a Christian nation, in a legal sense. [/QUOTE] I don’t see where you’re getting that interpretation. When I read the quote, it seems to me that he was saying that since the US was founded by men with - mostly - Christian values and that influenced how they decided the nation should be governed. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/4 "2007-10-01T23:08:07Z")
I guess you can’t handle the straight talk express telling it like it is. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/5 "2007-10-01T23:22:24Z")
By the same logic, we’re a white-male nation, n’est-ce pas? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/6 "2007-10-01T23:31:42Z")
And a land-rich slaveowning one, too. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/7 "2007-10-01T23:35:08Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] I don’t see where you’re getting that interpretation. When I read the quote, it seems to me that he was saying that since the US was founded by men with - mostly - Christian values and that influenced how they decided the nation should be governed. [/QUOTE] Really? From _this_ quote: > [@John McCain](#): > > I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation. This is simply factually incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/8 "2007-10-01T23:36:33Z")
Well, he lost _my_ vote. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/9 "2007-10-01T23:42:09Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] I don’t see where you’re getting that interpretation. When I read the quote, it seems to me that he was saying that since the US was founded by men with - mostly - Christian values and that influenced how they decided the nation should be governed. [/QUOTE] I guess it comes down to which version of the quote, if either, represents McCain’s actual feelings (in your opinion). ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/10 "2007-10-01T23:50:36Z")
_shrug_. To each his own; I’m not a big McCain fan in either case. But my first read of his original comments was consistent with his later explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Public\_Animal\_No.9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Public\_Animal\_No.9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Public_Animal_No.9)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/11 "2007-10-02T00:02:47Z")
It’s hard to see where the Constitution actually establishes the nation as Christian. However, there are indications that Christian norms were used as its basis. Article I, Section 7.2: “…If any bill shall not be returned to the President within ten days (Sundays excepted)…” Article VII: “Done in Convention by the unanimous consent of the States present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven, and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth.” The exception of Sunday indicates a recognition that this is the Christian day of rest, and of course the use of the phrase “year of our Lord” explicitly refers to Christ. These, to me anyway, pretty clearly demonstrate the Christian heritage of the framers and signers of the Constitution, but that’s not nearly the same thing as establishing the nation as Christian. There are at least two points in the Constitution that are explicit about separating religion from government - Article V, Section 2: “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States” and the First Amendment (in fact the first words of any amendment to the Constitution): “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…” ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/12 "2007-10-02T01:38:38Z")
Or, of course, from the source: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by John Adams (though written by Joel Barlow) > > The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion. From Article 11 of the [US Treaty with Tripoli](http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/13 "2007-10-02T01:47:40Z")
[QUOTE=Raza] Did I miss an Article? [/QUOTE] It’s one of the new amendments. It’s either after the one declaring the flag to be made of pure congealed holiness, or the one making English as Jesus spoke it our official language. Can’t remember which. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/14 "2007-10-02T02:31:10Z")
What upsets me is when candidates stake out controversial positions, then backpeddle with all sorts of finger-pointing at the media as if it is the fault of the media that they said something controversial in the first place. I am sure John McCain thinks that the United States is now, and has always been, primarily a Christian nation. That is the truth of the matter. Of course, the Constitution doesn’t establish any such thing, so that part of his statement is wrong. A worthwhile person would have said, “I blew it about the Constitution, but I still believe we are a Christian nation by tradition and by demographics.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/15 "2007-10-02T02:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=hajario] Really? From _this_ quote: This is simply factually incorrect. [/QUOTE] Well, that isn’t actually a quote from John McCain. He said he agreed with that statement, according to the article, and that might not make much difference. But it isn’t his quote, contrary to what the OP wrote. McCain is grasping at straws, trying to pacify the Christian right. It’s not a pretty sight. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/16 "2007-10-02T02:40:15Z")
Oops, my bad. On re-reading the article, it does look like that was a quote from McCain. I first thought it was the poll question that he agreed with. Wow, that was a stupid thing for a serious presidential candidate to say. Still, I don’t think it’ll hurt him any more than he’s already hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/17 "2007-10-02T02:47:23Z")
Well, there were a fair number of moderate Democrats and independents who in 2000 thought that McCain was a palatable candidate. Snuggling up to Robertson and Dodson is going to lose him a lot more than it gains. IMO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/18 "2007-10-02T02:56:16Z")
One would think that if the Constitution established the United States as a Christian nation that it would mention God or Jesus Christ at least once in the text of the document. Instead of, you know, not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/19 "2007-10-02T03:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] I don’t see where you’re getting that interpretation. When I read the quote, it seems to me that he was saying that since the US was founded by men with - mostly - Christian values and that influenced how they decided the nation should be governed. [/QUOTE] The founders were mostly non-Christian, but aside from that, McCain said the _Constitution_ establshed the US as a “Christian nation.” There isn’t a single word in the Constitution which reflects or codifies any uniquely Christian belief into law. As a matter of fact, it goes out of its way in the very first amendment to say it’s doing no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207/20 "2007-10-02T03:13:04Z")
[QUOTE=Public Animal No. 9] It’s hard to see where the Constitution actually establishes the nation as Christian. However, there are indications that Christian norms were used as its basis. Article I, Section 7.2: “…If any bill shall not be returned to the President within ten days (Sundays excepted)…” Article VII: “Done in Convention by the unanimous consent of the States present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven, and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth.” The exception of Sunday indicates a recognition that this is the Christian day of rest, and of course the use of the phrase “year of our Lord” explicitly refers to Christ. These, to me anyway, pretty clearly demonstrate the Christian heritage of the framers and signers of the Constitution, but that’s not nearly the same thing as establishing the nation as Christian. There are at least two points in the Constitution that are explicit about separating religion from government - Article V, Section 2: “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States” and the First Amendment (in fact the first words of any amendment to the Constitution): “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…” [/QUOTE] The Constitution also uses the conventional pagan names for the days of the week. Sometimes a convention is just a convention. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-says-us-constitution-establishes-christian-nation/421207.md?page=2)