# McCain supporters: nauseous yet? (Falwell) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723 "2006-04-07T15:01:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/41 "2006-04-11T22:04:06Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > . . . and was the sponsor of the most egregious anti-free speech bill in recent years. :rolleyes: Oh, jeez, you’re not talking about that feeble half-assed attempt at CFR, the McCain-Feingold Bill, are you?! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/42 "2006-04-11T22:04:11Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > Why, John Kerry isn’t a liberal? > I consider the Clintons to be moderates and Kerry and Kennedy Liberals. Is that really an unfair generalization? Hells yes, Kerry is a librul! He’s the most librul Senator in the Senate! Or so it was shouted from the mountaintops in 2004. Want to put some money on whether or not 2008’s Democratic candidate will be “the most liberal XXX in the YYY”? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/43 "2006-04-11T22:11:05Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > Really, do you base this [Kerry not to the left of Clinton] on voting records or some other determination? I base it on his 2004 campaign rhetoric, which offered liberals very little reason to hope, and left-progressives like myself even less. But, if we look at his record – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_kerry#Issues\_and\_voting\_record:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_kerry#Issues_and_voting_record:) > [@](#): > > John Kerry is member of the Democratic Leadership Council, which advocates liberal and neoliberal positions. Most analyses place Kerry’s voting record near to, or somewhat to the left of, center within the Senate Democratic caucus.[26] During the 2004 presidential election he was portrayed as a staunch liberal by conservative special interest groups and the Bush campaign, who often noted that in 2003 Kerry was rated the National Journal’s top Senate liberal. However, that rating was based only upon voting on legislation within that past year. In fact, in terms of career voting records, the National Journal found that Kerry is the 11th most liberal member of the Senate. Most analyses find that Kerry is “a bit” more liberal than the typical Democratic Senator. For example, Keith T. Poole of the University of Houston found that Kerry was tied for being the 24th most liberal Senator. [citation needed] > > Kerry has stated that he opposes privatizing Social Security, supports abortion rights for adult women and minors, supports civil unions for same-sex couples, opposes capital punishment except for terrorists, supports most gun control laws, and is generally a supporter of trade agreements. Kerry supported the North American Free Trade Agreement and Most Favored Nation status for China, but opposed the Central American Free Trade Agreement. No. Definitely not to the left of Clinton. (Insofar as we can make comparisons on this basis, Clinton never having served in Congress.) Really, what in the above shows any important differences between his politics and Clinton’s at all? For that matter, not even Howard Dean is much of a liberal, if we ignore his rhetoric and just look at his record as governor of Vermont. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/44 "2006-04-11T23:21:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I base it on his 2004 campaign rhetoric, which offered liberals very little reason to hope, and left-progressives like myself even less. But, if we look at his record – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_kerry#Issues\_and\_voting\_record:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_kerry#Issues_and_voting_record:) > > No. Definitely not to the left of Clinton. (Insofar as we can make comparisons on this basis, Clinton never having served in Congress.) Really, what in the above shows any important differences between his politics and Clinton’s at all? > > For that matter, not even Howard Dean is much of a liberal, if we ignore his rhetoric and just look at his record as governor of Vermont. I didn’t mention Dean, I like Dean. Your own cites say Kerry is only the 11th most liberal Senator. That is out of 100. To me that equals Liberal. If I am sitting somewhere in the Middle, Kerry is definitely a Liberal Senator. Even 24th is still on the liberal side of the Senate. Most Liberal Senator, I never believed that garbage to start with, but Liberal indeed. The Clintons seem much more moderate in policy and actions. I am not a right winger and I don’t believe anything that comes out of the Bush Campaign (who is a dirty stinking draft dodger!!!) I had little respect for the dolt to start with and the smear campaign they ran against McCain, finished off all credibility with me and many other moderates. BTW: I voted for Kerry the “Librul” decorated veteran because he wasn’t Bush the idiot with Evil Puppet Master Cheney. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Gladstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90db22/32.png) [@Gladstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gladstone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/45 "2006-04-12T00:41:55Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > I didn’t mention Dean, I like Dean. > Your own cites say Kerry is only the 11th most liberal Senator. That is out of 100. To me that equals Liberal. If I am sitting somewhere in the Middle, Kerry is definitely a Liberal Senator. Even 24th is still on the liberal side of the Senate. Since the 100 includes the 44 Democrats and the 55 Republicans (as well as the one Independent), then everyone around the 22nd most liberal senator on the list would be around the moderate wing of the Democrats in the Senate. The 44th most liberal senator and those Democrats immediately before that would be the conservative wing of the Democrats. Whereas the Republicans around the 45th most liberal senator and immediately below would be from the liberal wing of the Republicans in the Senate. Thus, the 24th most liberal senator would likely be from the moderate wing of the Democrats in the Senate and not necessarily a liberal per se. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/46 "2006-04-12T00:42:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Oh, jeez, you’re not talking about that feeble half-assed attempt at CFR, the McCain-Feingold Bill, are you?! Yup, and that’s the typical line put out by the devotees of unlimited campaign spending. George Will wraps himself in the First Amendment in [the same nauseating way](http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060410/EDIT/604100307/1003): _" Many of those Republicans especially abhor what his media friends most adore - his unwavering commitment to campaign regulations that enlarge the government’s power to regulate the quantity, content and timing of speech about itself, with the applauding media exempt from regulation, of course._ Hey fellas, want to empty out your wallets and savings accounts and send the proceeds to me? After all, it’s just “free speech”, and you wouldn’t begrudge me something free, now would you? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/47 "2006-04-12T00:54:50Z")
> [@Gladstone](#): > > Since the 100 includes the 44 Democrats and the 55 Republicans (as well as the one Independent), then everyone around the 22nd most liberal senator on the list would be around the moderate wing of the Democrats in the Senate. The 44th most liberal senator and those Democrats immediately before that would be the conservative wing of the Democrats. Whereas the Republicans around the 45th most liberal senator and immediately below would be from the liberal wing of the Republicans in the Senate. Thus, the 24th most liberal senator would likely be from the moderate wing of the Democrats in the Senate and not necessarily a liberal per se. So 11th would be a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/48 "2006-04-12T00:56:48Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > I didn’t mention Dean, I like Dean. > Your own cites say Kerry is only the 11th most liberal Senator. That is out of 100. To me that equals Liberal. If I am sitting somewhere in the Middle, Kerry is definitely a Liberal Senator. Even 24th is still on the liberal side of the Senate. Most Liberal Senator, I never believed that garbage to start with, but Liberal indeed. The Clintons seem much more moderate in policy and actions. The fact that he’s 11th on that list makes him pretty liberal _for a Senator_. But that’s about all it tells us. We know from this figure that, in a body not characterised by liberalism, John Kerry is relatively liberal. Hell, adding to **Gladstone** ’s point, even if we removed all the Republicans from the equation, that Wikipedia article notes that > [@](#): > > Most analyses find that Kerry is “a bit” more liberal than the typical Democratic Senator. As a party, the Democrats have been on a consistent march away from liberal Democratic values, making even someone’s relative position among the Democrats a rather poor indicator of how liberal they are. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/49 "2006-04-12T01:00:16Z")
> [@Gladstone](#): > > Since the 100 includes the 44 Democrats and the 55 Republicans (as well as the one Independent), then everyone around the 22nd most liberal senator on the list would be around the moderate wing of the Democrats in the Senate. . . . I think there’s a fundamental flaw in analyzing a Congresscritter’s place on the political spectrum by such a simplistic method (in relation to his/her peers and **numerically).** I mean, if Dennis Kucinich held the same views he holds now but every member of Congress were clearly to the left of him, that would **not** make him a conservative. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/50 "2006-04-12T01:21:01Z")
What is the Hangup with calling Kerry a liberal. I take it he doesn’t measure up to a true liberals Standard but to a Moderate or a conservative he looks plenty liberal. Next you’ll tell me Ted Kennedy isn’t a liberal. Can you please name a few true Liberal Senators so I know what everyone is talking about. Jim ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/51 "2006-04-12T04:50:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, the main reason was Rove’s dirty tricks. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_McCain#Race\_for\_President\_2000](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Race_for_President_2000) “Actually,” if you want to know why Republicans turned against McCain, you’d do well to ask Republicans, NOT to regurgitate more paranoid, “Rove is the Devil” pablum. John McCain could have and would have won the GOP nomination if he’d continued running as the “Reagan Republican” he always claimed to be. Instead, like anyone with a healthy ego, he learned to LIKE media adulation. He learned to LIKE being stroked by liberal columnists. And so he made a huge, folish miscalculation: he started pandering to the Left. He started backtracking on all the social issues conservatives cared about. Look, as a right-winger, I’d LOVE to hear a liberal Democratic candidate for PResident trash big labor unions or racial hucksters like Jesse Jackson… but I also knwo it would be EXTREMELY foolish for any Democrat to alienate the black voters and union voters he desperately needs to win his party’s nomination. It’s EQUALLY stupid to alienate religious conservatives and think you’ll still win the GOP nomination. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/52 "2006-04-13T13:43:58Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It’s EQUALLY stupid to alienate religious conservatives and think you’ll still win the GOP nomination. What did McCain actually do or say, in 2004, to alienate religious conservatives? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/53 "2006-04-14T13:25:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What did McCain actually do or say, in 2004, to alienate religious conservatives? Had a rumor circulating about him being responsible for a black baby? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/54 "2006-04-14T15:12:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What did McCain actually do or say, in 2004, to alienate religious conservatives? In 2004, not much. But in 2000, when he ran, as was mentioned in the OP, he gave a speech in Virginia Beach, where called Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson “agents of intolerance” and that they were like “union bosses who have subordinated the interests of working families to their own ambitions”, and said that the Religious Right practiced “the politics of division and slander” and that those practices of the Religious Right “are corrupting influences on religion and politics and those who practice them in the name of religion or in the name of the Republican Party or in the name of America shame our faith, our party and our country”. Whether you agree with him or not, and I do to a large extent, there’s no question that comments like that might piss religious conservatives off. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/55 "2006-04-14T15:29:24Z")
> [@](#): > > He can’t give commencement speeches if he disagrees with the university president? Liberty University isn’t exactly any university: it’s basically an ideological nutjob finishing school. They’re currently on a media blitz trying to promote their debate team as the best in the country (which many rube journalists have been suckered into writing stories about) I guess in the idea that it proves that Jesus is teh winnar. Except, they are wholy unexceptional in the debating leagues, winning no actual big titles and instead scraping a top record by focusing on avoiding challenging matches altogether in favor of beating amatuers. It’s as if a 4th grader went around beating up kindergardners and then claimed that they were the top UFC fighter in the country. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/56 "2006-04-14T15:47:25Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Does anyone else think that McCain would win a lot more votes if he were to clearly state that the good Reverend Falwell was completely out of his fucking mind? Or are there so many Kool-Aid drinkers in the Republican Party that this statement would result in political suicide? I would love it if he did that. Sidling up to a scumbag like Falwell was one huge mark against him in my book, and I’ve always sort of liked McCain. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I wish somebody would ask McCain how he feels about the fact that Falwell said America deserved 9/11. Maybe someone will ask. It’s something that should be dredged up a few times, to drive the point home. > [@Skammer](#): > > He would say he disagrees. He can’t give commencement speeches if he disagrees with the university president? Yippy. No one was twisting his arm to go there. He could have declined, due to “other more pressing blahblahblah”. There is no reason for someone who had the respect of even some Dems and opponents, to associate with a noted pile of vomit like Falwell. ---
**Author:** ![David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_God_of_Frogs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/57 "2006-04-15T01:07:46Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > What is the Hangup with calling Kerry a liberal. I take it he doesn’t measure up to a true liberals Standard but to a Moderate or a conservative he looks plenty liberal. Next you’ll tell me Ted Kennedy isn’t a liberal. > Can you please name a few true Liberal Senators so I know what everyone is talking about. > > Jim We could start with people who voted against the war. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/58 "2006-04-15T12:51:39Z")
> [@David](#): > > We could start with people who voted against the war. How many was that, I was under the impression it was only a handful. If I’m wrong, please enlighten me. Keep in mind your talking to someone who at 18 voted Reagan and then joined the Navy shortly after. Thankyou, Jim ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/59 "2006-04-15T15:35:43Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > How many was that, I was under the impression it was only a handful. If I’m wrong, please enlighten me. > Keep in mind your talking to someone who at 18 voted Reagan and then joined the Navy shortly after. How is your support for Reagan or your joining the Navy in any way related to the factual question of how many members of Congress voted for the war? ---
**Author:** ![David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_God_of_Frogs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723/60 "2006-04-15T23:08:36Z")
I’m too lazy to look up the exact number now, but I’m pretty sure it’s between 1/4 and 1/3. OTOH, that is a lot of people when you compare it to the number of people that actually self-identify as liberal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccain-supporters-nauseous-yet-falwell/351723.md?page=4)