McCain Supporters, please answer a question

[XT]

@monstro

I know we’re supposed to rest assured knowing we went with crappy choices in the past, but I’m not really convinced. After hearing all the rhetoric this summer about the need for strong leadership to deal with the problematic economy and terroristic threats all around us (plus the two wars we’re embroiled in), I’ve been led to believe that yes, we need the most qualified people we can get running this country.

Out of curiosity, did you buy that earlier rhetoric? Was that rhetoric what sold you, and now that the rhetoric (from a politician for gods sake) has changed you feel disillusioned?

For that matter, how did you feel about the ‘change’ rhetoric when Obama went with the safe boring choice of a Washington insider? Do you generally buy whatever rhetoric the pols are selling, and feel bad when they change in mid-stream?

I’m genuinely curious here…not busting your chops.

Now I’ll be the first to admit that qualifications aren’t necessarily tangible or quantifiable. On paper alone, there’s nothing about Obama that makes him look presidential. An inspiring up-and-comer, yes. But not necessarily Mr. President.

Definitely disagree…I think Obama looks VERY presidential. He oozes personality and leadership by the way he carries himself. The man LOOKS presidential…much more so than McCain does.

Being President of the US is about image and perception IMHO. Perception becomes reality, and Presidents that can project this image become good Presidents (or at least potentially good Presidents). Look at Regan…or Clinton. People BELIEVED in them and were willing to follow them. Look at someone like Adams who was a terrible President (IMHO) despite how qualified and intelligent he was. Andrew Jackson may be looked down on now, but during his time people loved him and followed him…not because he was the best choice but because he was a LEADER.

Obama, IMHO, projects the same aura. If it does win I think we’ll do well with him…for what my opinion is worth to you.

But he possesses intangibles that I think could compensate for his weaknesses. Someone who’s charismatic, intelligent, and wise can assemble a good team of advisors. And someone’s who curious and intelligent enough can learn to jump through hurdles he’s never encountered before. Do I think Obama possesses the most qualifications out of all the possible choices? No. But I think he has the best mixture of strengths PLUS a fanbase that’s been with him since Day One of the campaign. It’s hard to argue that there’s a Democrat right now who could do the damn thing like Obama has.

I agree. He is very intelligent and I think he has a lot of potential. Essentially the question of what or what isn’t qualification comes down to how people perceive the candidates. It’s their personality and magnetism that is the most key…not how many years they have been in office or how hooked up they are to the Washington power game.

I don’t think the same can be said for Palin, while I do think it can be said for McCain. It won’t matter, though. Qualifications should* matter, but this is a popularity contest ultimately. Chances are Americans will vote for Grandpop and his “hot” assistant and convince themselves that the strongest leaders were chosen.

I think it’s too early to tell. I think she may be of a similar mold to Obama (not in politics but in personality and magnetism)…just to a different segment of the population than Obama (though I think they MAY cross over in who they appeal to in the center for much the same reasons…despite their politics their personality appeals to a wide range of people who though they may disagree with their positions feel drawn to the person).

Time will tell…guess we’ll see if she falls down or stands up. I think that ASSUMPTION that she is out of her league is going to bite the Dems on the bottom at some point. YMMV of course…

-XT

[LilShieste]

@Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley

Then open a goddam thread about Biden. I’d be more than happy to discuss it.

I really couldn’t care less about the question, actually. The point I want to make is that by turning around and posing the same question to the other side, you end up validating the question itself. Once you do that, it’s impossible to just focus on one person (because the same responses will just be applied to the other person).

@Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley

What I wanted to do is have a discussion about Palin’s qualifications, without an immediate diversion onto Obama or Biden, since that’s all I’ve heard anyone do on TV or on this board. That technique is called defocusing. Palin supporters are afraid to talk about her qualifications, so they take the focus off that question and put it somewhere, anywhere, else. I hate defocusing.

I completely agree. IMO, though, asking the question in the manner above just plays into their goal of defocusing the discussion.

[Sarahfeena]

To answer the OP, no, I suppose she isn’t the MOST qualified person the Republicans could have chosen.

But the way you asked that question pretty much left you open to the comparisons, not just to Obama, but the ones Sam Stone listed, as well as others. If the “most qualified person” isn’t the one typically chosen, then I guess the question is more about if she is at least reasonably qualified compared to other people who have held the job. It’s not fair to hold one candidate to a standard that no one else has upheld, and giving examples of how it has not been upheld seems valid to me.

So, again, I don’t think she’s MOST qualified. Is she what the party needs right now? I think maybe. McCain is not the best speaker. He in no way has the talent Obama has for galvanizing his supporters. He needs someone that people will respond to, and who they can relate to, and yet who is no-nonsense and determined. I think he definitely found all of that in her. Personally, I think she’s shown herself to be a little overly determined in the way she ran her state, but let’s face it, conservatives tend to admire that kind of thing.

And, as has been pointed out again and again, being governor is probably the best possible training ground for the job. McCain is a senator, and doesn’t have that kind of managerial experience, so in that way she will be good for him, as well. We all know that VP candidates are chosen for a whole host of reasons other than their strict “qualifications” for the job. In terms of those other reasons, I don’t see this being such an awful pick.

[Sam_Stone]

@Czarcasm

How enlightening.
Now, would you happen to have an opinion that has anything at all to do with OP? If you want to talk about Carter’s qualifications, start a thread about Carter.
If you want to talk about Clinton’s qualifications, start a thread about Clinton.
if you want to pontificate about Ferraro, fell free to start a thread about her.

In your opinion, was Palin the best choice McCain could have made for VP? If not, who would you have picked?

I wouldn’t have picked any of the current candidates on either side, because I don’t agree with any of them. If I had my druthers, I’d pick a libertarian-leaning captain of industry like TJ Rogers or even Steve Forbes. Someone who understands that governments work best when they do the least.

But if you want to know what qualities I think are important in a politician, I’d have to say that personal integrity and a sense of honor rank higher than book learning, because I don’t think governments should run a whole lot. I’m wary of highly educated, policy wonk types, because they think they can be clever enough to formulate complex central plans, which invariably fail. I’d rather pick a politician with humility, who’s pretty sure that he’s NOT smarter than everyone else, and therefore shouldn’t try to run their lives.

I understand the Democratic attraction to Obama - if you’re going to run health care, manage trade, redistribute wealth, and develop complex plans to manage the economy, you want a smart guy. I don’t, because I categorically reject that government should do any of those things. So I’d rather have a candidate who was humble - someone who knows he isn’t there to try to build a new economy, but who’s there to make sure the government stays out of the way of the people.

I think Reagan had the qualities I’d pick in a President. He wasn’t brilliant, but he was smart enough. But he was a brilliant orator who could inspire people. He gave people confidence to do things on their own, rather than telling them they would fail without his help. He was a good man at heart, who cared about his country, but who understood the limits of government.

There’s no one like that running this time. Palin’s close, if she didn’t have that pesky religious conservative bent to her. McCain has the honor and honesty and all that, but I think he’s too much of a do-gooder who thinks he can change the world. That’s nice in small doses, but in large doses it approaches zealotry.

Barack Obama is an old-time liberal who thinks that the only reason big government hasn’t worked in the past is because it hasn’t been run by someone as smart as he is. He wants to spend a lot of money and restructure society around government. I find that scary, misguided, and doomed to failure.

I could give a rat’s ass which university any of them went to. I think Obama’s qualified enough, and so is Palin. I just don’t think that’s the best metric to judge them by.

[Bobotheoptimist]

@Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley

True or False: Sarah Palin is the most qualified Republican in the country to be Vice-President.

Hell if I know, but probably not. I don’t know why the VP position should be any different than thousands of other political positions.

McCain probably isn’t the most qualified Republican in the country to be President. Nancy Pelosi probably isn’t the most qualified Democrat to represent California’s 8th district. Benedict probably isn’t the most qualified Catholic to be Pope. Wayne Allard certainly isn’t the most qualified Republican to represent Colorado. Everyone knows Obama isn’t the most qualified Democrat to be Vice President.

What’s your point? Just looking for someone to say she’s not the most qualified?

[Saint_Cad]

@Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley

I asked this question in another thread and all I got back was “Oh yeah, well Obama’s not qualified either.” I will concede that Obama is not the most qualified Democrat in the country to be President, but that’s not really the issue.

The issue is that the Demos are comparing the qualifications of their PRESIDENTIAL candidate with the Reps’ VICE-PRESIDENTIAL candidate. That’s not a good sign for the Dems because despite all of the current hype, ultimately people do not vote for vice-president. e.g. J. Danforth Quayle

[elfkin477]

False. We know very little about this woman, so how could the most qualified person be a complete unknown? Being qualified should allow one to make a name for themselves, at least amongst their own party, right?

[Voyager]

@Mr.Moto

I don’t know what counts as qualified, frankly - historically what matters here is whether the choice will help the ticket politically. And I think that’s an open question right now too.

Garry Wills had an op-ed column in the Times on Wednesday basically saying it would probably be best if she dropped out sooner rather than later, and comparing her to Eagleton. So, you’re not the only conservative wondering if she is helping the ticket.

[Sam_Stone]

@elfkin477

False. We know very little about this woman, so how could the most qualified person be a complete unknown? Being qualified should allow one to make a name for themselves, at least amongst their own party, right?

She’s made a big splash in her party, which is hard to do from Alaska. She’s the most popular governor in the country, and she was being floated as VP material months ago.

The Weekly Standard did a two page feature on her, including VP prospects. Read about it here.

From December 2007: Top 10 Stories - the Rise of Sarah Palin

With approval ratings consistently between 80 percent and 90 percent, Sarah Palin is not only the nation’s most popular governor; she might be the public official in America who is held in the warmest regard by her constituents.

Just a year into her first term, Palin is gaining even more national attention.

As political honeymoons go, her’s might be one for the record books.

In 2007, new Gov. Palin got the Legislature to give her the gas line selection process she wanted and the increase in oil taxes she called a special session for.

Meanwhile, controversies over the failed state dairy and her vetoes of public works projects did little to blunt her popularity.

“I think that it’s been a great year,” Palin said. “Thanks to supportive legislators, who are kind of tired of politics as usual and recognize the need to do some things differently and really start progressing the state.”

At mid-year, pollster Dave Dittman found unprecedented high marks for Palin, with 88 percent of Railbelt residents approving of her job performance, notably her working relationship with the Legislature.

“They’re cooperating together. I think the public at large likes that,” Dittman said. “The Legislature has the highest marks I’ve ever seen.”

Legislators were grateful for Palin’s change of pace.

“It certainly was a huge improvement over the last administration. The whole mood was a mood of more cooperation this year than it has been since I’ve been in the Legislature,” said Rep. Harry Crawford, D-Anchorage.

You’ll note that that last comment was from a Democrat. She apparently did a very good job in bringing both sides together.

Longtime White House correspondent and Baltimore radio commentator Lester Kinsolving says Alaska’s governor would be a perfect running mate for Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani.

“I can’t imagine anyone that I can think of right now who would be more appealing as a vice presidential candidate,” Kinsolving said.

Fred Barnes, a regular talking head on Fox News, met with Palin at the governor’s house in Juneau this summer and wrote a rave review about her for his magazine, the Weekly Standard.

“What helps her obviously is that she’s a woman, she’s attractive, she’s a conservative, she has a strong record of integrity, she’s a spending-cutter, she’s not a tax-raiser, and those things obviously would help,” Barnes said. “I’m not sure she’s ready to be vice president, yet, however.”

From August 7, 2007:

Could Alaska’s “Hottie” Governor Be the GOP’s VP Nominee in 2008?

Palin’s first months in office have not been easy. Presiding over a Republican Party rife with accusations of corruption, many of them focusing on the state’s senior US Senator, Ted Stevens, Palin has served with grace and poise. In May, three former state legislators were indicted on corruption charges that stem from the repealing of the state’s oil tax and the creation of one which was more favorable to the oil industry. Palin has now called for a special session of the state legislature to meet in October. During that time she will ask for a new tax to compensate for the $150 million shortfall the ‘new’ tax has created.

Sarah Palin’s new tax hike is in keeping with her maverick reputation. She is now being promoted as a possible GOP candidate for Vice President in 2008. Will this proposed tax hike hurt her within conservative circles? She is a life-time member of the National Rifle Association, and strongly pro-life. A devout Christian, she completes the “maverick” image by maintaining openly gay friendships and implementing same-sex benefits for the state. According to Fred Barnes, there are those in Alaska who are not comfortable with her strong faith.

She’s certainly hard to pigeonhole. Here we have articles from last year, describing her as someone who raised taxes on big oil (she did), who has openly gay friends and supports gay rights, smoked pot, and who has a reputation for being able to work with Democrats to get things done. She’s a Christian Conservative, but it’s a distinctly Alaskan variety. A little more Libertarian than you might expect (other than her strong pro-life stance).

Here’s another article from February, 2008 describing the ‘buzz’ in Republican circles over John McCain possibly picking Sarah Palin as his running mate.

Here’s another from July, 2008Sarah Palin would be a bold GOP Choice.

And finally, there’s the Draft Sarah Palin for VP web site, which has been running for over a year now.

Sarah Palin has made a huge splash in the GOP since she became governor. Everyone in Conservative circles knew who she was when McCain picked her.

[John_Mace]

@Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley

True or False: Sarah Palin is the most qualified Republican in the country to be Vice-President.

Of course not.

I asked this question in another thread and all I got back was “Oh yeah, well Obama’s not qualified either.” I will concede that Obama is not the most qualified Democrat in the country to be President, but that’s not really the issue. Millions and millions of people together made the decision to nominate Obama; Palin was selected by one person.

So what? If McCain wins, she’ll have been selected by more people than voted for Obama in the primaries.

[Renob]

I’m not a McCain supporter but I do really like Palin, so I’ll answer:

Of course she’s not the most qualified. So? I fail to see how this is a criticism.

No one has ever claimed she was the most qualified person for office. Being “most qualified” isn’t the criteria used to pick a VP. It’s clear you are asking this in order to criticize her, so it’s completely justified that the qualifications of Obama and Biden are also scrutinized. If you think that it’s so damning that she’s not the most qualified, then why don’t you also think it’s damning that Obama and Biden aren’t the most qualified? Why are you even asking the question?

[monavis]

@Sarahfeena

To answer the OP, no, I suppose she isn’t the MOST qualified person the Republicans could have chosen.

But the way you asked that question pretty much left you open to the comparisons, not just to Obama, but the ones Sam Stone listed, as well as others. If the “most qualified person” isn’t the one typically chosen, then I guess the question is more about if she is at least reasonably qualified compared to other people who have held the job. It’s not fair to hold one candidate to a standard that no one else has upheld, and giving examples of how it has not been upheld seems valid to me.

So, again, I don’t think she’s MOST qualified. Is she what the party needs right now? I think maybe. McCain is not the best speaker. He in no way has the talent Obama has for galvanizing his supporters. He needs someone that people will respond to, and who they can relate to, and yet who is no-nonsense and determined. I think he definitely found all of that in her. Personally, I think she’s shown herself to be a little overly determined in the way she ran her state, but let’s face it, conservatives tend to admire that kind of thing.

And, as has been pointed out again and again, being governor is probably the best possible training ground for the job. McCain is a senator, and doesn’t have that kind of managerial experience, so in that way she will be good for him, as well. We all know that VP candidates are chosen for a whole host of reasons other than their strict “qualifications” for the job. In terms of those other reasons, I don’t see this being such an awful pick.

If being a governor is the best traing ground, then why is the country in the state that it is? Even McCain admits that it needs changing, and Bush was governor of one of the largest states with a much bigger population and look at the mess we are in now. Why did McCain pick a Bush clone to be his VP (when he tries to disaccoiate him self from Bush)?

Monavis

[monavis]

Iwas late in editing so I will now spell dis-associate correctly. Sorry about that.

Monavis

[Stratocaster]

@monavis

If being a governor is the best traing ground, then why is the country in the state that it is? Even McCain admits that it needs changing, and Bush was governor of one of the largest states with a much bigger population and look at the mess we are in now. Why did McCain pick a Bush clone to be his VP (when he tries to disaccoiate him self from Bush)?

Monavis

Applicable experience doesn’t guarantee good performance. No one could claim that. Someone could have the perfect pedigree and still execute their duties like crap. That doesn’t make the experience irrelevant, and that’s what all the bullshit experience debate is about. Your assertion is illogical.

And Palin is a fiscal conservative, right? That makes her a Bush clone how?

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

@Renob

I’m not a McCain supporter but I do really like Palin, so I’ll answer:

Of course she’s not the most qualified. So? I fail to see how this is a criticism.

No one has ever claimed she was the most qualified person for office. Being “most qualified” isn’t the criteria used to pick a VP. It’s clear you are asking this in order to criticize her, so it’s completely justified that the qualifications of Obama and Biden are also scrutinized. If you think that it’s so damning that she’s not the most qualified, then why don’t you also think it’s damning that Obama and Biden aren’t the most qualified? Why are you even asking the question?

I would agree with you, except for the fact that the Republicans this year have been hyping experience as the main factor that should be considered in selecting a president. Then they turn around and choose somebody with very little experience- even less by many measures than Obama. And then the same people who have been criticizing Obama about not being experienced turn right around and start worshiping Palin. It’s ridiculous.

I absolutely agree that the qualifications of Obama and Biden should be discussed, in addition to the qualifications and experience of Palin. What I’m pointing out by starting this thread (which BTW has gone exactly the way I knew it would,) is that when you ask a Republican about Palin’s qualifications, they immediately change the subject to Obama or Biden, and demand that their qualifications be discussed, without discussing Palin’s. Get it?

I will call your bluff though and tell you what I think of Biden’s qualifications, and see if anyone will then discuss Palin’s. Biden is probably not the MOST qualified, but he is a member of a very small group of people that are highly qualified. He is in a group of people, any one of which you can make a good argument that s/he is most qualified. I think anyone in that group would make a fine choice, and the presidential candidate should choose from that group someone who is a good fit personally and can bring something to the ticket.

I think that there is a similar small group of republicans, any one of whom could make a good case that they are most qualified. I think that Sarah Palin would have to stand in line to take a number to get on the waiting list to be in that group. She’s not in the top 100 most qualified, and that’s being generous. And when McCain has been talking and talking and talking about experience being so so so important, picking her is a joke, and an insult to a lot of qualified people who have been paying their dues for years.

[Sarahfeena]

Not in the 100 most qualified? Let’s see, there are 100 US senators and 50 state governors. I’m not going to count up how many are Republicans, so let’s say about half. That’s 75 people. So you are saying that she’s far less qualified than ALL the other Republican governors and ALL the Republican senators? Plus there are 25+ congressmen, mayors, and others more qualified than her? Can you give me some support for a statement like that?

[Bobotheoptimist]

I’ve been thinking about this and finally figured out who exactly is qualified to be the VP - George H.W. Bush. He’s the only Republican with 8 years VP experience plus 4 years Pres. experience, thus beating Cheney.
And Algore is the best qualified Democrat for the job, so why isn’t he on the ticket? Talk about a failure! There’s a perfectly qualified, well-known and adored visionary out there, and Obama gets stuck with Biden. So I’m not going to vote Obama because he doesn’t have Gore.
Ok, I’m not voting Obama because I dislike his policies, but it seems to be what people are saying with the Palin attacks.

[Giles]

@Bobotheoptimist

I’ve been thinking about this and finally figured out who exactly is qualified to be the VP - George H.W. Bush. He’s the only Republican with 8 years VP experience plus 4 years Pres. experience, thus beating Cheney.

Yes, George H.W. Bush is clearly qualified to run for Vice-President, and he’s the person with the largest amount of relevant experience for the job, Republican or Democrat. I suspect. however, that he’s not exactly available for the position.

The second most experienced Republican would be Dick “puppet master” Cheney, and the third most experienced would be Dan Quayle (who is still alive, though has not been heard from for many years). These facts clearly demonstrate that other things can trump experience.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

@Sarahfeena

Not in the 100 most qualified? Let’s see, there are 100 US senators and 50 state governors. I’m not going to count up how many are Republicans, so let’s say about half. That’s 75 people. So you are saying that she’s far less qualified than ALL the other Republican governors and ALL the Republican senators? Plus there are 25+ congressmen, mayors, and others more qualified than her? Can you give me some support for a statement like that?

Former Senators, former governors, former mayors, long-serving members of Congress-- I bet I could come up with 100.

Of course, since there is no official body that bestows “qualified” ratings on people, we probably will not be able to agree.

Kudos on skipping over all the pertinent parts of my post, though, and concentrating on the one little tidbit you could start a semantic quibble over.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

Yes, that’s right Bobtheoptimist, *anything *to avoid talking about Palin’s qualifications. Changing the subject to Biden, screaming “sexism,” or setting up ridiculously absurd strawmen to mock anyone who dares to bring it up. All good tactics. Too bad they only work on those who already believe.