# McCainites for lower taxes: do you make over 250G? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2008, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926 "2008-09-10T12:00:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/21 "2008-09-11T15:34:24Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I’m not completely discouraged from getting any answers ever, but this is certainly not a good sign for getting to quantify the amounts McCain voters who are primarily motivated by their own tax savings expect to save under McCain, which was my original goal here. Give us \>250K households a little break here. My taxes are already borderline too complicated for self-preparation. The forms and papers seem to pile up at an exponential rate to the investments that you accumulate. I can’t even tell you what I’d be paying in 2008 taxes within a 10K margin of error under current IRS rules; I doubt anyone is going to go and grok both candidates’ plans fully enough to run the numbers thrice, one under status quo, one under McCain, and one under Obama, which is the level of specificity you seem to be asking for. ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/22 "2008-09-11T15:57:33Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I support Obama and earn more than $250K. My taxes will go up under him. > > Ultimately I favor eliminating income taxes and taxing only consumption (a national sales tax). To protect low income workers, a tax rebate would be passed back so effectively those earning under about $25K would pay nothing. aka the Fair Tax. Our current system discourages saving and productivity. So people like me, who make about $35K a year and are living paycheck to paycheck, would pay more in taxes proportional to their income than people who make $350,000 a year? Why do you want to tax consumption, as that is what drives the economy? It may have been a while since you’ve made $25K a year. That’s not much at all anymore. I make a lot more than that and still qualify for food stamps and medicaid on my children. ---
**Author:** ![hdc\_bst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9f8e36/32.png) [@hdc\_bst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hdc_bst)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/23 "2008-09-11T18:42:07Z")
Thought I’d throw in this tidbit for the ‘$250k is not all that rich’ crowd. The 2007 U.S. Census includes information on household income quintiles. [Here](http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new05_000.htm) you can see that the bottom income of the top 20% households is $97k, the bottom income of the top 5% households is $174k. I humbly propose that if you earn more than 95% of the US households you are rich (not necessarily insanely wealthy) regardless of where you reside. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/24 "2008-09-12T00:24:21Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > Dividend taxes are the ones that piss me off the most. Why? > > Take an over-simplified scenario: > > You own a $100 share of stock that typically pays 10% dividend. But that stock takes a dive to $70. But you get 10% in dividends, so you have 1.1 shares now, or $77 at year’s end. > > You’ve now lost $23 on paper. But the government makes you pay taxes on that 10% “gain”, anyway… > > I lost a chunk of money in the market, but I still had to pay a bunch of taxes on my “gains”. 1. Dividends are not paid as a percentage of the share value, they are paid as an absolute dollar amount per share 2. Dividends are paid in cash, not in stock. You may have directed the account holding your shares to automatically reinvest the cash back into the same stock. You are not required to do this. 3. You really did have a gain. 4. This is not really any different, for tax purposes, than taking some of your salary and using it to invest in stocks. You still have to pay taxes on your salary, even if the stock investment heads south. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/25 "2008-09-12T00:31:18Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > 1. Dividends are not paid as a percentage of the share value, they are paid as an absolute dollar amount per share > > 2. Dividends are paid in cash, not in stock. You may have directed the account holding your shares to automatically reinvest the cash back into the same stock. You are not required to do this. > > 3. You really did have a gain. > > 4. This is not really any different, for tax purposes, than taking some of your salary and using it to invest in stocks. You still have to pay taxes on your salary, even if the stock investment heads south. And generally speaking, the absolute value paid does not go down. If ABC Inc has a $1.00 per share dividend, they will move heaven and earth to continue to pay a $1.00 a share dividend, even if they stock price tanks due to poor performance. Companies do NOT like to reduce dividends, because they attract more people to the stock when the price is low and therefore the dividend yield is high (also, lowering your dividend is a good way to put your stock in the toilet, something corporate senior managers and boards really don’t benefit from). ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/26 "2008-09-12T02:36:48Z")
Just found [this](http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/). When I tried it, it said that at my income it would be a wash, but can some of you try it with your upper-incomes and tell us the result? Thanks.) They also [link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html) to a WaPo story that goes into a little detail. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/27 "2008-09-12T04:32:07Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Just found [this](http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/). When I tried it, it said that at my income it would be a wash, but can some of you try it with your upper-incomes and tell us the result? Thanks.) They also [link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html) to a WaPo story that goes into a little detail. I’d save $481 under Obama, and pay $456 more under McCain. I tried it for all the possible salaries as a single person with no dependents. Oddly, the bottom two brackets ($10k and $15k) save more in absolute terms than $25k-$50k. Then there’s a range around $100k who’d pay more under Obama, then you go back to getting a tax cut all the way to $250k+, at which point you don’t again. So, if that thing is accurate, if you’re filing as a single and you’ve got no kids, you should (economically, at least) vote for Obama unless you make around $100,000 or over $250,000. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/28 "2008-09-12T05:15:45Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > 1. Dividends are not paid as a percentage of the share value, they are paid as an absolute dollar amount per share > > 2. Dividends are paid in cash, not in stock. You may have directed the account holding your shares to automatically reinvest the cash back into the same stock. You are not required to do this. Thanks for the correction. Had to correct new accounts a couple of times when dividend reinvestment didn’t get through. You’re right, of course; that’s just how I’ve conditioned myself to view my investments. _shrug_ > [@](#): > > 1. You really did have a gain. My head knows that. All my heart feels is the kick to the balls; I’ve not reached that Warren Buffet zen-state. Money lost, even only on paper, still hurts a lot, as all the homeowners who are upside down on mortgages know. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/29 "2008-09-12T16:19:00Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > My head knows that. All my heart feels is the kick to the balls; I’ve not reached that Warren Buffet zen-state. Money lost, even only on paper, still hurts a lot, as all the homeowners who are upside down on mortgages know. Taxes, however, aren’t based on if you “feel” you are better off than before, or if you are “emotionally ready” to hand over your hard earned (hard won, hard invested) cash over to the government. If they were, I’m not sure we’d fund much in government. Taxes are structured to be “fair” when we really can’t agree on what “fair” is - so there is a lot of compromise. But to be fair, we DO try and be as objective as possible - dividends are objectively measurable. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/30 "2008-09-12T16:27:30Z")
I don’t think McCain supporters (or, more accurate to your OP, anti-Obamists) will vote for not-Obama because of taxes out of any knowledge of specific tax increases… i.e., I don’t believe people are thinking, “well, if Obama was only going to raise my taxes by $8,000 a year, I’d vote for him, but $10k? forget that!” and voting for not-Obama. My guess would be that they are more opposed to the general idea that Obama is flat-out telling them he’s going to charge them more in taxes, and McCain isn’t. Not to say that he won’t; everybody remembers “read my lips.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/31 "2008-09-12T17:58:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That doesn’t answer the question, and ignores the possibility that the Republicans don’t know how to spend it either. But it acknowledges that the Republicans are taking less of it from me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/32 "2008-09-12T18:00:26Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I don’t think McCain supporters (or, more accurate to your OP, anti-Obamists) will vote for not-Obama because of taxes out of any knowledge of specific tax increases… i.e., I don’t believe people are thinking, “well, if Obama was only going to raise my taxes by $8,000 a year, I’d vote for him, but $10k? forget that!” and voting for not-Obama. > > My guess would be that they are more opposed to the general idea that Obama is flat-out telling them he’s going to charge them more in taxes, and McCain isn’t. Not to say that he won’t; everybody remembers “read my lips.” Everyone also remembers the President who said that, and who had huge public approval ratings, going down in defeat because he reneged on that promise. Which suggests it’s not likely to happen again. (At least in a first-term president, I’ll cynically add.) ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/33 "2008-09-12T21:07:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Unless you sold those stocks, you didn’t lose any money. > > If you did sell the stocks, the loss was a write-off. Which only means that you can offset against other capital gains (if you have any), or a small amount against income, thereby saving 15% capital gains tax plus your state tax. So you “only” lose about 80% of the fall in value. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/34 "2008-09-12T22:56:49Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I don’t think McCain supporters (or, more accurate to your OP, anti-Obamists) will vote for not-Obama because of taxes out of any knowledge of specific tax increases… i.e., I don’t believe people are thinking, “well, if Obama was only going to raise my taxes by $8,000 a year, I’d vote for him, but $10k? forget that!” and voting for not-Obama. Actually that’s pretty much what the people at the party I was at last night specifically said. I’m wondering if one candidate or the other will actually create an environment where it’s more likely for me to make $250,000 a year. I mean what the hell do I care about the tax rate if there are no jobs? Also…I’m curious as to what those over $250K people do…because I’ve been thinking about a career change. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/35 "2008-09-12T23:45:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Actually that’s pretty much what the people at the party I was at last night specifically said. > I’m wondering if one candidate or the other will actually create an environment where it’s more likely for me to make $250,000 a year. I mean what the hell do I care about the tax rate if there are no jobs? > Also…I’m curious as to what those over $250K people do…because I’ve been thinking about a career change. The silence is persuading me that what we’re seeing here is simple greed, or in the case of people not yet making a quarter million per annum, either naive optimism gone wild or a very loose grasp on reality. If I’d gotten a few honest estimates (i.e., “I figure it would cost me $ 4,000 next year to have Obama elected,” ) then we would know the price of patriotism, integrity, country first, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/36 "2008-09-12T23:49:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also…I’m curious as to what those over $250K people do…because I’ve been thinking about a career change. Household income - two income family with investments… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/37 "2008-09-12T23:50:46Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Which only means that you can offset against other capital gains (if you have any), or a small amount against income, thereby saving 15% capital gains tax plus your state tax. So you “only” lose about 80% of the fall in value. You can carry over the loss to subsequent years/ Believe me, I did a lot of this after the bubble burst. I just recently used up all my losses. As for me, I’m getting pretty close, but don’t mind paying some more taxes to try to heal the growing inequality, which is hurting the country in lots of ways. If Obama’s cut, and other methods, drive up demand I’ll make far more on an improving market than I lose on increased taxes. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/38 "2008-09-13T01:56:17Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > The silence is persuading me that what we’re seeing here is simple greed, or in the case of people not yet making a quarter million per annum, either naive optimism gone wild or a very loose grasp on reality. If I’d gotten a few honest estimates (i.e., “I figure it would cost me $ 4,000 next year to have Obama elected,” ) then we would know the price of patriotism, integrity, country first, etc. Not a lot of people make over $250K a year…period. The people at the party I was at last night pretty much all do (including my GF and I combined). But we all work in finance or technology in New York City. Anyhow, while we were sitting around on some swanky Upper West Side roof deck with our wine and cheese crapping in our golden toilets, most of them were thinking it would cost us like half our income to have Obama. Realistically, neither candidate is terrible and both are probably full of shit. So people vote with their pocketbooks. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/39 "2008-09-13T04:50:22Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > The silence is persuading me that what we’re seeing here is simple greed Damn right, and proud of it. /s/ Greedy SOB ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926/40 "2008-09-13T06:07:31Z")
I (my spouse and me) made about $300k last year, probably incrementally more this year. I don’t have a problem with paying taxes on what I make, either now or under Obama. What ever happened to everyone in this country pitching in to make thinks better? We’re at war, right? Shouldn’t everyone, even me, sacrifice? In any case, I expect under Obama I’ll pay (percentage-wise) about what I would have payed in taxes in the '90’s, which is less than I would have in the '80’s, and is a great deal less than I would have payed in the '70’s. If rich folk (me!??) could man up 20 years ago, why should I do less now? Anyone who fears tax increases under Obama is a schlemiel – taxes will increase incrementally, big deal, but will be much much less (percentage) than what was payed 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Man up! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccainites-for-lower-taxes-do-you-make-over-250g/462926.md?page=3)