# McCoy offers the defendant a gift: six years **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117 "2012-07-03T17:31:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/61 "2012-07-04T04:30:16Z")
> [@MrDurden](#): > > I am also familiar with two states, one of which Salt Lake is in that take income and assets into account when assigning a public defender. And you are expected to pay a fair share. I would parrot Greenslime in wondering what state has scott free public defenders to someone with a regular income and assets. Aren’t you the gentleman who claims to leave a tip for the cashier every time that you buy a 6 pack of Heineken or a quart of milk at the mini-mart? If so, forgive me for feeling any need to respond to your claims of legal expertise. ---
**Author:** ![MrDurden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@MrDurden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDurden)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/62 "2012-07-04T05:06:29Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Aren’t you the gentleman who claims to leave a tip for the cashier every time that you buy a 6 pack of Heineken or a quart of milk at the mini-mart? > > If so, forgive me for feeling any need to respond to your claims of legal expertise. 6 pack of Heineken, definitely. Quart of milk, nope. Rarely touch the stuff. You just make up stuff and expect people to believe you when there are holes in your posts I could fly a 747 through… Utah does not provide free public defenders for people with reported incomes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDurden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@MrDurden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDurden)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/63 "2012-07-04T05:16:53Z")
And here is a wonderful little cite… [http://www.acluutah.org/indigentdefense.html](http://www.acluutah.org/indigentdefense.html) “A criminal court defendant in Utah must prove that he is indigent to be assigned with a public defender. To be determined indigent, the defendant must disclose an accurate list of his debts, financial assets and other resources as well as income. This information must be documented through bank statements and pay stubs.” ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/64 "2012-07-04T06:09:52Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Quite so - statements based on “what my unidentified relative told me” are simply not verifiable and should not be accepted as proof. > > Which leads to: > > Therefore we should not accept this statement as proof about the difficulty for convicted felons to get credit cards. My point sailed far over your head: I was pointing out to the responder that it is impractical, and somewhat silly, to require everyone on this forum to post citations for every statement they make, as if we were writing doctoral theses. I made this point because the responder had taken me to task for not offering such proof, and I pointed out to him that he hadn’t done so, either. In any case, there MAY be one or two or twelve companies that will give a credit card to anyone. Who knows? To provide the “proof” you require, I would have to post links to the policies of every single credit card company in the country. Sorry, I’m not going to do that. If YOU seem to think my not doing so invalidates my statement, fine. Try demanding documented proof to back up any and every statement your wife, boss, co-workers, etc. make and see how well-loved you become. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/65 "2012-07-04T06:30:23Z")
I’ve worked with felons and I agree it can be very difficult for them to turn their lives around even if they do want to, but it’s not generally as bad as you’re saying. One thing you didn’t mention though is the various fees that they often have to pay. Court fees, fines, supervision fees, victim restitution, etc. Those can add up to a whole lot of money. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/66 "2012-07-04T11:58:15Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > My point sailed far over your head: I was pointing out to the responder that it is impractical, and somewhat silly, to require everyone on this forum to post citations for every statement they make, as if we were writing doctoral theses. I made this point because the responder had taken me to task for not offering such proof, and I pointed out to him that he hadn’t done so, either. Actually, on these forums we do ask for citations on a regular basis, particularly in General Questions and Great Debates. If someone starts an OP with unsubstantiated assumptions, they will be questioned, as **John Mace** summarised above: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I’m not missing your point at all. I’m suggesting that, as interesting as your point may be, talking about a solution is ludicrous without some metric about how bad the problem is in the first place. And if the data is not available, then we don’t really have any way of knowing how big or bad the problem is. I’m certainly not going to buy into a policy solution for a problem that hasn’t been measured. Maybe some academic needs to take this on as PhD thesis or something. > > Still, crying foul because the data doesn’t exist isn’t going to cut it in this forum. If you claim the problem exists, it is incumbent on you to quantify it. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/67 "2012-07-04T14:51:55Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > In any case, there MAY be one or two or twelve companies that will give a credit card to anyone. Who knows? Exactly. Who knows? Even assuming that your brother’s bank will not open a bank or credit card account for anyone with a felony conviction\* , that means that one bank won’t issue credit cards to convicted felons. It could be the only one that won’t - as you said, who knows? And BTW, I doubt you would have been asked for cites if you said “Some banks won’t give a credit card to a convicted felon” It’s blanket statements that tend to lead to request for cites. - and I really question how he would know that- I have branch and credit card accounts with the same bank, and the branch personnel have nothing to do with the credit card accounts ---
**Author:** ![MyFactCheckBounced](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MyFactCheckBounced](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFactCheckBounced)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/68 "2012-07-04T15:34:14Z")
McCoy has, however, also proven to me the universal inefficacy of public defenders, particularly when faced with the statement “A lot of people are poor… but not all of them commit **murder.** ” ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/69 "2012-07-04T19:15:05Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > It’s difficult to tell- for the most part, the ones who have to live at the shelter and can’t even get a job at Burger King were in _exactly that situation_ before the felony conviction. It’s hard to say that the felony conviction is what’s keeping a person from getting a job when he never had one before the conviction. I was wondering about this aspect. Some (most?) people who commit crimes do so out of desperation. To count those people as proof that _after_ they get out of prison they have a rough go of it seems misguided. Still, I feel as the OP is, in general, correct though. I’m not sure what we can do about it though. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/70 "2012-07-04T20:15:06Z")
Damn it Jim! I’m a doctor, not a lawyer!" ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/71 "2012-07-04T20:16:38Z")
> [@MyFactCheckBounced](#): > > McCoy has, however, also proven to me the universal inefficacy of public defenders, particularly when faced with the statement “A lot of people are poor… but not all of them commit **murder.** ” A lot of them also remained strangly silent while he badgered a confession out of someone on the witness stand. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/72 "2012-07-05T00:49:33Z")
Does anyone of you all ever consider that your anecdotal evidence of people getting jobs, apartments, credit cards and free public defenders is based on the fact that they lie on applications, forms etc. Many employers refuse to hire convicted felons even to the point of requiring licenses and fingerprinting, but that does not always prevent a good liar from getting through the process. The average public defenders’ office has precious little money to defend a client, probably a lot less to determine if he lied on his delinquency statement. A case, not precisely on point, is that of george Zimmerman who claimed to have limited funds on his bail application, which was granted, only to have it discovered that he had $200,000 in an account set up for him to solicit donations from the public. I don’t believe it was the court system that discovered the misrepresentation. ---
**Author:** ![MyFactCheckBounced](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MyFactCheckBounced](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFactCheckBounced)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/73 "2012-07-05T00:57:19Z")
> [@Skara\_Brae](#): > > A lot of them also remained strangly silent while he badgered a confession out of someone on the witness stand. But he’s coming from a good place. It’s okay. You know, he just wants justice. It’s not like they’re supposed to mount a vigorous defense or anything. I wonder how many of those guys could appeal on the grounds of incompetent counsel? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/74 "2012-07-05T01:30:15Z")
I’ve wondered about this too, and it seems like we choose short term retribution over long term stability. What are ex-felons who sincerely want to improve their lives supposed to do if doors are shut to them? I don’t have any stats, but I do like watching TV shows like lockup, which is a prison documentary. They have some episodes where they follow people who have been released. It seems like a lot of them have a place to live and end up finding jobs. They also seem accident prone (at least 2 had severe accidents). But the fact is that they got out and they found places to live and jobs to go to. I wonder if nowadays a felony conviction is even the worst thing to happen. A misdemeanor conviction (indecent exposure, etc) that gets you labeled a sex offender seems like it would close more doors in life. I’ve gone with the assumption that in the hierarchy of doors closed due to labels by the legal system it is civil cases & infractions misdemeanors felonies sex offenses Also, FWIW, I have filled out job applications before and a lot of them ask about felony convictions in the last 7 years. I do not know if they look beyond that, but at least where I am several applications seem to imply they only look at the last 7 years of your life. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/75 "2012-07-05T02:10:01Z")
> [@denquixote](#): > > Does anyone of you all ever consider that your anecdotal evidence of people getting jobs, apartments, credit cards and free public defenders is based on the fact that they lie on applications, forms etc. Many employers refuse to hire convicted felons even to the point of requiring licenses and fingerprinting, but that does not always prevent a good liar from getting through the process. Other employers don’t refuse - my anecdotal evidence consists of 18 years of working with parolees and inmates.Those who employed parolees usually knew about their records, and those who employed inmates in work-release programs \*always \*did. Also, it’s illegal in some states to refuse employment based simply on a conviction- for example, in NY, it is illegal to deny employment based on a conviction unless it is directly related to the job (an employer can refuse to hire an embezzler for a job that involves handling money, but not for one as a receptionist ) or one where hiring would pose an unreasonable risk to property or people (which requires that a number of factors be considered). It is however, completely legal to refuse to hire ( or even fire ) someone who lies about their criminal record. I have never seen a bank account or credit card application that even asked about a criminal record. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/76 "2012-07-05T03:20:08Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > My point sailed far over your head: I was pointing out to the responder that it is impractical, and somewhat silly, to require everyone on this forum to post citations for every statement they make, as if we were writing doctoral theses. I made this point because the responder had taken me to task for not offering such proof, and I pointed out to him that he hadn’t done so, either. > > In any case, there MAY be one or two or twelve companies that will give a credit card to anyone. Who knows? To provide the “proof” you require, I would have to post links to the policies of every single credit card company in the country. Sorry, I’m not going to do that. If YOU seem to think my not doing so invalidates my statement, fine. Try demanding documented proof to back up any and every statement your wife, boss, co-workers, etc. make and see how well-loved you become. A link to at least one or two major reputable credit card companies who have this policy would help. As others in this thread, I have opened a lot of credit accounts in my life and have never been asked about criminal history, nor had a criminal background check performed on me for an extension of credit. The only thing these companies care about is whether they will be paid back, or not. They do this by looking at your previous repayment history. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/77 "2012-07-05T03:37:36Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Also, FWIW, I have filled out job applications before and a lot of them ask about felony convictions in the last 7 years. I do not know if they look beyond that, but at least where I am several applications seem to imply they only look at the last 7 years of your life. It’s not so much that, as that the internet snoop services available to the public can only reliably access data that is at least that recent. So If you chose to conceal your 15-years-ago conviction, they couldn’t find out if you were lying anyway. The more sophisticated and comprehensive databases shared and used by law enforcement go back to even before the days of computerized record-keeping. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/78 "2012-07-05T03:42:12Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Also, it’s illegal in some states to refuse employment based simply on a conviction- for example, in NY, it is illegal to deny employment based on a conviction This would seem to be cold comfort for the applicant as the employer could easily claim that his refusal to make an employment offer was due to any one of a hundred “legitimate” reasons, including that someone with more, or more recent experience was available. Let’s face it, someone who has spent the last decade in the penitentiary probably won’t be an ideal candidate for _any_ job. Any but the most basic skills (like how to use a mop and bucket) may very well have obsolesced. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/79 "2012-07-05T03:55:15Z")
> [@denquixote](#): > > Does anyone of you all ever consider that your anecdotal evidence of people getting jobs, apartments, credit cards and free public defenders is based on the fact that they lie on applications, forms etc. Many employers refuse to hire convicted felons even to the point of requiring licenses and fingerprinting, but that does not always prevent a good liar from getting through the process. Not me, because my anecdotes are mostly based on felons on active probation/parole and in work release facilities. When your boss has to talk to your probation officer or work release supervisor, that makes it pretty hard to say you don’t have a criminal record. And no credit card application I’ve ever seen asks about your criminal record, so I don’t even know how someone would lie about that. Apartments, yeah, it’s probably not uncommon to lie on those applications. > [@MyFactCheckBounced](#): > > I wonder how many of those guys could appeal on the grounds of incompetent counsel? It’s VERY hard to win an appeal for that. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/80 "2012-07-05T04:16:32Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > This would seem to be cold comfort for the applicant as the employer could easily claim that his refusal to make an employment offer was due to any one of a hundred “legitimate” reasons, including that someone with more, or more recent experience was available. Let’s face it, someone who has spent the last decade in the penitentiary probably won’t be an ideal candidate for _any_ job. Any but the most basic skills (like how to use a mop and bucket) may very well have obsolesced. I didn’t say many had skilled jobs- most of them worked in retail stores, restaurants, warehouses or as messengers. Although you would actually be surprised at the jobs some inmates perform while they are still in prison. It’s not just mopping floors. NYS prisons may answer call in a call center run by the prison for the Department of Motor Vehicles, manufacture furniture, apparel ,eyeglasses and highway signs, work an offset printing shop and train service dogs in addition to performing maintenance work around the prison. And I know I left out more than a few jobs- that furniture sits in a warehouse after it’s manufactured, and when it is sold, bills need to be prepared. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117.md?page=5)