# McCoy offers the defendant a gift: six years **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117 "2012-07-03T17:31:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/81 "2012-07-05T11:10:49Z")
> [@denquixote](#): > > Does anyone of you all ever consider that your anecdotal evidence of people getting jobs, apartments, credit cards and free public defenders is based on the fact that they lie on applications, forms etc. I’m certain some do - I’ve even encountered it in the workplace. On the other hand, did you ever consider that not _every_ convicted felon lies and not _every_ employer refuses to hire any and all former offenders? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/82 "2012-07-05T13:25:39Z")
> [@MyFactCheckBounced](#): > > But he’s coming from a good place. It’s okay. You know, he just wants justice. It’s not like they’re supposed to mount a vigorous defense or anything. > > I wonder how many of those guys could appeal on the grounds of incompetent counsel? If we’re still talking about the _Law and Order_ universe, not many. McCoy seldom gets the accused to confess on the stand; when he has in-court “I did it!” moments, they typically come from someone else, and presumably the defense lawyer is sitting quietly as McCoy creates an automatic acquittal for his client. In real life, an appeal for inadequate representation is governed by the standards of _Strickland v. Washington_ – the petitioner must show both that his attorney’s conduct fell below a definite, measurable objective standard, AND that he suffered specific prejudice as a result. That’s a huge bar. For example, let’s imagine a murder trial in which the defense lawyer falls asleep during the trial. On appeal, the defendant must prove not only the sleeping, which clearly falls below an objective standard of professional conduct, but also must point to some specific harm that his case received as a result. He can’t simply say that awake, the guy would have been a better lawyer; he must point to some objection that went unmade because the lawyer was asleep, or some key procedural motion that was defaulted because of the lawyer’s sleep. It’s a very difficult standard to meet. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/83 "2012-07-06T04:46:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’m certain some do - I’ve even encountered it in the workplace. On the other hand, did you ever consider that not _every_ convicted felon lies and not _every_ employer refuses to hire any and all former offenders? Wlel, I can tell you that when the question is worded in the “have you ever been arrested” fashion , I always lie and I have never been caught, even when fingerprints have been taken and a state license has been involved. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117/84 "2012-07-06T14:14:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If we’re still talking about the _Law and Order_ universe, not many. McCoy seldom gets the accused to confess on the stand; when he has in-court “I did it!” moments, they typically come from someone else, and presumably the defense lawyer is sitting quietly as McCoy creates an automatic acquittal for his client. > > In real life, an appeal for inadequate representation is governed by the standards of _Strickland v. Washington_ – the petitioner must show both that his attorney’s conduct fell below a definite, measurable objective standard, AND that he suffered specific prejudice as a result. That’s a huge bar. > > For example, let’s imagine a murder trial in which the defense lawyer falls asleep during the trial. On appeal, the defendant must prove not only the sleeping, which clearly falls below an objective standard of professional conduct, but also must point to some specific harm that his case received as a result. He can’t simply say that awake, the guy would have been a better lawyer; he must point to some objection that went unmade because the lawyer was asleep, or some key procedural motion that was defaulted because of the lawyer’s sleep. > > It’s a very difficult standard to meet. Further, the Court implies that the prejudice must be so grave that it would have changed the outcome of the trial. Actually, they don’t really say that. They state that a judge is NOT the jury and that they will not determine the guilt or innocence of a person. But then they go into a multi-prong, multi-factor test that after taking 3 Advil boils down to “would the jury have still convicted had the lawyer done XXX” and, in fact, making themselves jurors. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mccoy-offers-the-defendant-a-gift-six-years/627117.md?page=4)