# McDonalds everywhere, good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162 "2003-02-06T06:49:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/41 "2003-02-08T04:36:06Z")
My only complaint about McDonalds is that it is too far out of town! I am getting sick of KFC. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/42 "2003-02-08T05:44:26Z")
**DrDeth** I never said I had anything against profits. And other cultures don’t have a visible presence in India like American culture. Your illustration deals with multicultural coexistence in immigrant-magnet America and parts of Britain. Not the regions where I believe my point holds. What I simply commented was that due to predominantly American corporate global expansion, its culture was best poised to override local culture. That there wasn’t much competition from France or Germany or Russia, China or say Sweden in this regard. This is not America’s faults but I consider it a sad state of affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Wolfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/43 "2003-02-08T08:03:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lobsang \* > \*\*Well Pakistan has rather a lot of Muslims. And I am willing to bet that most of those muslims don’t like America. So it seems strange that there is a very much American symbol (mcD) in that country. \*\* **Lobsang** , Pakistan has 97% of Muslim population, yes. Most of Muslims don’t like America, yeh, may be. But it has nothing to do with not having McDonalds there. McDonalds fanchises target city/metro areas. People in big metro areas are quite trendy and fashionable when it comes to follow Western lifestyles. As a matter of personal observation, people have a better sense of fashion in dress etc compared to an average American (New York City excluded) as they follow Britian and French fashion waves. McDonalds, KFC, Pizzeria Uno, TGIF, Pizza Hut etc are status symbols there and mostly the trendy, yuppie, crowd likes to go their. It’s not about the food, just alone. It’s ALSO about a status symbol and Pakistani people, like any other thrid world country, are very much in status quo in metro areas. McDonald also offer something that’s even better. It also targets middle class families who are not part of higher up status quo but still like to have “show” of things. Add to that the fact that most of the Pakistani fast food places don’t offer enough space for kids to play around, clean environment like McDonalds, and spacious seating. So it’s a win win situation for even middle class people to go to McDonalds. The only problem McDonalads has presently is that their food is drastically different than cultural taste of Pakistani people. The native culture uses a lot of spices and hot red pepper etc. Getting used to McDonalds’ spice-less beef pettie with cheeze is kinda tricky but once people would develop the taste for it, it’d be a lot more profitable than what it’s now. **PS-** So if you can go as for as to use the word “bet” to stereotype Pakistani people based on them being “Muslims”, won’t you think they’d have similiar stereotypes about Americans? May be you want to introspect a bit before jumping to conclusions that “Since they are Muslims, they hate Americans”. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/44 "2003-02-08T08:18:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > Well, I don’t know about this. Right here in Silicon Valley, I can eat the foods of just about every culture in the world. Thai, French, Mexican, German, Russian, Italian, Ethiopian, and the list goes on. Many of these are authentic, run by immigrants from that nation. Certainly, when the dude moves from Viet nam & opens a restaurant here, he is driven by “revenues & profits”, isn’t he? I have heard that in England there are also many cultural foods available- in fact my friend insists the best curries come from Indian eateries in GB, not the subcontinent. Exactly. You know, the whole argument that we are “polluting” other cultures reminds me of a segment I saw on 60 Minutes (IIRC). They were talking about how the French try to legislate against adopting any English words into their language, ostensibly to protect the purity of their culture. The irony of the situation was demonstrated quite nicely when 60 Minutes pointed out how many _French_ words have been adopted into the _English_ language. Like it or not, the modern world is slowly developing into a global culture, and you can’t stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/45 "2003-02-08T11:39:04Z")
My father is almost as picky about food as I am, and I’m way to picky for my own good. When I was a kid, I remember him saying that one of the great things about America was because of chains like McDonalds, you knew you could go anywhere in the country and get a decent meal. Not gourmet, not necessarily delicious mind you, but a nice, known quantity which you didn’t have to think much about after a hard day of working or travelling. That’s now expanded to worldwide. I’ve got to agree. If nothing else, if I need to eat, but I don’t care what and I’m not up for unpleasant surprises, chances are there’s a fast-food joint around somewhere where I can at least get a plain hamburger, fries, and some form of cola. I’ll get fancy tomorrow. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Elethiomel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Elethiomel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elethiomel)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/46 "2003-02-08T12:20:28Z")
I don’t particularly _like_ McDonald’s food. I make it a rule not to eat there, because I don’t support the way they treat their employees (no cite, but I remember reading lots. Anyway, I’m not trying to prove they’re treating their employees badly, these are just my personal reasons for not eating there). However, when I was interrailing through southern and eastern Europe, I ate there on a few occasions. The reason? Toilets. Anywhere you go, McDonald’s has clean, white, porcelain, sit-on-it toilets. That is not the general case everywhere in southern and eastern Europe, where toilet facilities are often minimal because of the need to turn a profit on whatever establishment provides them for customer use. So in my personal, subjective opinion, McDonalds everywhere is: Bad, because I don’t like the company in general. Good, because they have clean toilets and that is a very comfortable thing to have access to. Bad wins out though, so strong are my prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/47 "2003-02-08T12:25:13Z")
I think that the IDEA of McDonald’s all over the world representing America is rather unpalatable. Having said that, though, they do provide one major public service in America: clean public restrooms. When I’m traveling or just out and about in town and need to go to the restroom, I look for the golden arches. You never have to look too far, which is a good thing when your back teeth are floating… Also, while their food isn’t GOOD, per se, it is consistent and fairly inexpensive, so sometimes, that’s the ticket. Plus, many of them here in the states have playgrounds built in them, so it’s a good place to stop when you’ve got kids who’ve been cooped up in the car too long. Sometimes I wish that folks from other countries could see the America that I see; not McDonalds, but a small town diner where the food is good, inexpensive, and your coffee is cheerfully refilled for free. I really want people from other countries to see the warmth and openness of the regular folks here (especially the South, the most misunderstood part of the country). We’re not all violent idiots, just our leaders and a few whackos… ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/48 "2003-02-08T19:54:35Z")
> [@](#): > > _from Gyan9_\*\* > If a monoculture was to reign supreme, American culture is already in the best position to accomplish that. Trouble is, economic forces don’t offer much of a chance for local cultures to have a say in this. > > This leads to fears that the global spread of Americana could mute if not extinguish local culture. Certainly, this is true in Bombay as I can testify from firsthand experience. \*\* What exactly is this “monoculture” you keep going on about? Are you contending that franchises like McDonalds prevent you from speaking your own language? Eating your own local cuisine? Observing your own cultural practices? Practising your religion?Going to restaurants that are not McDonalds? What exactly? You claim that you have firsthand experience that Americana has “muted and extinguished” your local culture, how so? Perhaps it is an exclusively American thing to see foreign restaurants popping up in our country not as “muting and extinguishing” our own culture but instead as **adding to it**. But I severely doubt that. Rather I believe that cultural exchange is not always the _zero sum game_ that you make it out to be. > [@](#): > > _from Manatee_\*\* > My first post in this thread (which is the first after the OP, IIRC) cites two books that convinced me that McDonald’s treatment of its own people is less than stellar. Both Ritzer and Schlosser lay out a litany of abuses, ranging from the minimum wage/no benefits combo (which is hard to knock 'em for too much; after all, they’ve gotta squeeze in a profit somewhere) to the punitive measures that the corporation takes against franchisees (revoking franchises without notice and for minor transgressions; poaching from one franchisee by placing another too close by). > > So I didn’t feel that my post was a vague assertion; I guess I took it for granted that it was common knowledge that McDonald’s doesn’t treat its employees and franchisees well. So you’re right in pointing out that I didn’t mention any kind of support for my position. > > RE: your last paragraph. Why don’t you eat there? Does it have to do with the people running the place (as the first sentence of that paragraph might suggest)? \*\* I’m sorry I missed the sources you pointed us to earlier in the post. But seeing as you only really directed us to those sources while not providing any specific evidence from them, it seems that, as you admit, my accusation of vagueness is still not unwarranted. You read those books and came to your own interpretation, it most certainly is [ie.](http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/69/Fast%20Food%20Nation%20:%20The%20Dark%20Side%20of%20the%20All-American%20Meal.htm)not the only one possible. And I must admit, excerpts like [this one](http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/books/ritzer_excerpt.html) do not indicate a balanced view of the subject at hand. Considering I haven’t read either book yet, it would be stupid for me to dismiss those sources based on what I could google about them. Likewise, it would be stupid for me to simply accept that you have a valid case because the books themselves exist. As to whether or not it is “common knowledge” that McDonalds does not treat its employees well is somewhat debatable. It isn’t exactly the sort of job that takes a great deal of skill or experience. If it were then the benefits of the job would reflect that. As it is no one is forcing their employees to work there, so it must be “worth it” enough for some people to stay on. “Poaching” from other franchisees hardly demonstrates something inherently wrong with McDonald’s business model. Sure it seems “unfair” to the business owner who would like to monopolize access to McDonalds in his or her area, but forcing franchises to compete with one another in order to promote efficiency between them is simply good economic practice. I won’t pretend to be an expert on what constitutes a “minor infraction” and I am willing to admit that stupid things happen because of strict adherence to the “rules” but once again it seems to me that it is in McDonalds best interests to make sure that the rules they lay down are obeyed. And no, actually my personal aversion to eating at McDonalds has little to do with how the employees are treated. It has more to do with the quality of the food itself (which admittedly can be negatively impacted by poor employee treatment). Even a McDonalds restaurant that treats its employees well is working from the same corporate formulations. I would rather eat elsewhere because I believe that a McDonalds hamburger or chicken nugget is not the best of either that I can get for my dollar. Simple as that. > [@](#): > > _from Insaneous_\*\* > First the said that my dad would be the manager. My mum wouldn’t have ne thing to do with the business at all, she couldn’t work their, couldn’t be manager, and if my father died the business wouldn’t go under her name, if would go back to McDonalds. Their excuse for this was that the wife should be at home making dinner for the family. \*\* That’s crazy, I hadn’t ever heard that. While I support McDonald’s ability to make whatever rules they want provided they are legal I still don’t have to like them. > [@](#): > > _from Insaneous_\*\* > Secondly as soon as u start making a profit they force you to in invest in new things, ie party rooms, playgrounds etc so therefore the franchisee is running on minimum profits for the franchisee the whole time. If you broke this rule and tried to make higher profits without building new things or along those lines, it would be breaking a clause in the contract and McDonalds would take the store back. \*\* McDonalds is in a very competive industry, even if potential franchisees do not realize this - McDonalds certainly does. Profits are to be reinvested in capital, a franchisee already makes a salary in addition to bonuses for doing well. There is a great deal of established microeconomic theory that holds that the competitive firm must be making zero economic profit in order to stay competitive. If you want to keep your own economic profits then you are setting yourself up to get pushed out of the market by those who realize that you need to stay lean to survive. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/49 "2003-02-08T21:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Azael \* > \*\* > You claim that you have firsthand experience that Americana has “muted and extinguished” your local culture, how so? > > Perhaps it is an exclusively American thing to see foreign restaurants popping up in our country not as “muting and extinguishing” our own culture but instead as **adding to it**. But I severely doubt that. Rather I believe that cultural exchange is not always the _zero sum game_ that you make it out to be. > \*\* Reread my original post. Go to colleges in Bombay. Hang around near cafeterias. Compare and contrast attitudes towards societal issues of say 1985 and today. BTW, it’s “muting if not extinguishing”. You don’t even seem to have read or understood what I said. Cultural domination doesn’t have to work by coercion, it can very well work by subliminal influence. And I’m NOT targetting McDonalds alone for that. It’s just another jigsaw piece. The most important inducer is Hollywood. Monoculture refers to a global culture where attitudes & behaviours begin to exhibit a commonality not seen before and possibly distinct from prior existing local attitudes. I just commented that it hasn’t completely happened yet, but American culture is best poised to make that happen. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/50 "2003-02-09T01:33:04Z")
Certainly, I choose NOT to eat at McDonald’s nowadays - not because of any political agenda or cultural xenophobia or anything - merely because I’m 40 years old now, and even though I do a shitload of cycling to stay lean and fit, those BLOODY LOVE HANDLES are just itching to get bigger if they can! (smile) Accordingly, I tend to joke nowadays that McDonald’s are nothing more than glorified “fat dispensers” - and in many respects they are. It seems that 9 times out of 10, a marginal or “bland” taste tends to go thru the roof if it’s dissolved in fat. And it’s true too. Think of all the richest tasting sauces or meals in the world and almost always, there’s a high saturated fat content to “amplify the quality” of the tastes involved. McDonald’s knows this. They’ve done the research too - they’ve tried producing lower fat versions of their meals and the research found it simply didn’t taste anywhere near as good - which obviously would be a death knell for them. Nonetheless, the business model of McDonald’s itself is simply world class - just fantastic. Top notch attention to details, and franchise universality, and quality hygiene etc. Just a magnificent business model. In that context, it’s something that the USA should be incredibly proud of it seems to me. All I would ask, is given the global influence that McDonald’s has now, that they might also start to offer some meals which are obviously healthier as part of their menus. They can stick with the high profit existing items - but it’d just be cool if they also showed a commitment to food education by offering stuff like McSushi for example. I’d certainly eat it, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162/51 "2003-02-09T07:14:40Z")
I’m not saying that McDonalds is evil or a conspiracy or anything. I just kind of find it vaguely depressing. My little cousin is only two years old and already he’s already convinced that he needs hamburgers and french fries at every meal. I know quite a few adults who refuse to eat anything unfamilier. Not all picky eaters are caused by corporate food, but I think it does have an influence. I know as a child I “knew” that McDonalds and Kids Cusine frozen dinners were “real” food and that the fried egg sandwhiches my mom made were less desireable substitutes for cool, branded food. I know now that kids ate something before dinosaur-shaped chicked nuggets and green ketchup. As a foodie, it just makes me sad to see people’s tastes become so limited so early in life. Likewise, sprawl makes me sad. Northern California is going to become sprawl from San Francisco to Lake Tahoe, and from Marysville to Fresno. I drove from Sacramento to Santa Cruz today. When I was a kid, that drive was full of small towns and beautiful vistas. Now it is full of Wal-Marts, PetSmarts, Home Depots and endless big-box stores and chain restraunts. The downtown areas around here- once full of mom and pop stores and family owned restraunts are now just outdoor malls- full of the Gap and Starbucks. Everything looks the same everywhere I go. When I visit Los Angeles, or San Francisco, or the Midwest or the East coast I see the same damn things. It’s not evil. But the endless overwhelming sameness gets me down. Now what is evil is the way these companies treat their workers. It is a system that thrives off of human misery. But that is another story unto itself… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcdonalds-everywhere-good-or-bad/153162.md?page=2)