# McNabb now a Redskin **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 5, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962 "2010-04-05T00:49:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/221 "2010-04-15T16:27:59Z")
I just don’t see the big deal. The Skins have a definite upgrade at QB here and still have the #4 pick. McNabb is by most objective measures, a very good QB. Yep; he doesn’t have a ring. You can list many great QBs that retired ringless…Marino, et al. Just having a QB that knows what it feels like to win consistently is a big plus. He’s not in bad shape or anything. Sure, he’s not going to carry them to the playoffs on his shoulders, but he can certainly help a lot. They can take up to 2-4 years to draft and develop his succsessor. Not a bad spot to be in, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/222 "2010-04-15T17:37:42Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I wouldn’t dispute Sports Psychology is legitimate. What I find ludicrous is the belief that individuals with no training believing they can diagnose an individual by watching them play and interview on TV. Then it would be equally be ludicrous that anyone with no training could diagnose McNabb as being mentally strong (or whatever your beliefs on McNabb) by watching them play and interview on TV. Face it. You have as much credibility as I do. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I personally think anyone who has reached Mcnabb’s level probably doesn’t lack self confidence. Then again it would stupid be reach such conclusion who I’ve only seen through their public face presented. Really? Then you would agree that sports psychologists are a sham and voodoo medicine, because anyone that has reached the pinnacle of their sport (in this case the NFL) would by your definition not lack in confidence. It would also be fair to say that losing confidence would not be possible in your world either, right? McNabb is still bothered by the fact that Eagle fans booed when he was drafted. I can understand a 22 year old senior being bummed about it, but the idiots that booed him were not booing HIM, but rather the fact that the Eagles didn’t take Ricky Williams. And yet, he still seems bothered by it. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > This is the key point. People interpret actions based on results. The difference between Farve’s just having fun out there persona and Mcnabb’s immaturity is simply the fact that one won and the other hasn’t. Sure people do. That’s not surprising to you, is it? When comparing QB’s of the same era, for example, what yardstick do you think most people use? Championships, maybe? I don’t know if McNabb is immature or insecure. I don’t know why Favre can’t let go and retire. I can take a guess, though. As long as someone is willing to pay them to play QB, however, I say they should both stay out there as long as they want. That doesn’t mean I’d want either one of them to be my favorite team’s QB. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Again, if Mcnabb wins we would talk about out how inspiring his performance was in that he overcame illness. You formed a conclusion first and are trying to make the facts fit rather than looking at them objectively Not really. I formed my opinion based on comments made by some of his teammates at the time. This is from memory, not from an article I read yesterday… but the idea that he was ill was not the take on his vomiting in the huddle at the time. If he was truly sick, his own teammates didn’t know it or think it. At the time. Perhaps that was just sour grapes or frustration on their part after an emotional loss. By the way, McNabb didn’t win, so the conversation you are talking about never took place and never will. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I think that is an oxymoron. You aren’t willing to check if your right, you are just going to assume you are? Can you imagine why I don’t put great faith in your opinions? If someone came in and proved Mcnabb didn’t play better in the first half than the 2nd will you concede that perhaps you are mistaken and Mcnabb isn’t as anti-clutch as you believe? Or would you just believe it anyway? Because I don’t care about the Eagles, yes, I’m just going to assume I’m right. I’m not in GQ here. If you think that hurts my credibility, that’s ok with me. I don’t care enough about this particular issue to go back and create the spreadsheets. I think the Eagles made the right decision. I think the Redskins have made an upgrade at QB, but he’s not Peyton Manning. I like Shanahan as a coach, especially over Zorn, so if McNabb thrives under Shanahan, maybe it’s time to look very hard at Andy Reid. And yes, if someone proved that McNabb was much more clutch that I think he was, I would absolutely concede the point. I don’t have a Donovan McNabb voodoo doll. And if McNabb wins a Super Bowl before he retires, I’ll be happy to admit I was wrong about the guy. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > This is what annoys me. If a player fails it doesn’t mean he lacks mental toughness. He could lack ability. He could be unlucky. His receivers could be poor or defenders especially good. Not every bad pass is a mental failing. Sometimes a guy just throws a bad pass. I agree with most of this (except the fact that you are annoyed. Why get annoyed over someone’s opinion? I don’t agree with yours. but it’s not annoying me). But if you don’t notice a pattern with McNabb and the results he was able to achieve in an Eagles uniform, I think you are ignoring a lot of why he was traded. And that’s fine. But the guy is only what, 32, 33 years old? He still has a few good years ahead of him. The Eagle management felt he had run his course. To go with Kolb has nothing to do with the idea that they had to give Kolb a chance. The Eagles didn’t owe Kolb anything. If they felt that McNabb gave them a better chance to win in 2010, why on earth trade him? It’s not like the Eagles were OK for one or two good seasons and didn’t win. The Eagles were one of the best teams in the NFC during the past 7-8 years. That’s a long time to be unlucky. Look. Believe what you believe. I’m fine with that. I am free to believe what I believe, also. if you love McNabb because as an Eagle fan he did more for your franchise than any other QB in your lifetime, I’m not going to rain on your parade. I can appreciate that. Hell, if the Pittsburgh Pirates made the playoffs, I’d be beyond thrilled, so if you are an Eagle and McNabb fan, I can understand your perspective and your annoyance at someone like me who, in your opinion, doesn’t give him his due. But since I’m not an Eagle fan, I can see why those that are have had enough of his run. And considering he was unable to master the short passes required to run the West Coast Offense in 11 years, I wouldn’t be excited to see him under center this year in Philly, either. My own happiness comes from the fact that the Eagles are on TV each week in my location. So I watch far more Eagle games than I’d care to. I look forward to watching them this year, even if Kolb and the Eagles go belly-up. Yes, that’s a personal problem for me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/223 "2010-04-15T17:54:03Z")
Remember that time Jeff Garcia was the starter for a while, and the Eagles won a Super Bowl? Oh, wait, that last part didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/224 "2010-04-15T18:01:49Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The important thing, to me, is whether the guy is playing uncharacteristically poorly in a way that requires some kind of intangible explanation. To my eye, he has not. (To answer the question, the Eagles drove 80 yards in 4 minutes to score the touchdown that put them down 3, and then got the ball back at the 4 yard line with 46 seconds left, at which point yes, he “failed” to have enough poise to get the 96 yards. He was criticized for taking too long to get the first touchdown, you may recall). Thanks for the reminder. I obviously didn’t remember the exact sequence. Just a small comment, however… he didn’t need to drive 96 yards in 46 seconds. He had to get them in field goal range. Still, I don’t know how many time outs they had left, or if the previous drive was mismanaged by McNabb or Reid (or both). > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > And there’s two things I’d point out. The first is simply that even the quarterbacks who you would say ‘have it’ don’t do it nearly all the time. There are lots of important games in the NFL, and yet there isn’t anybody who wins anything like all of them. Roethlisberger’s turned in as many clutch stinkers as he has big game winning performances. Brady’s been getting there and losing for years now. Agree completely. The point is not that Roethlisberger is money \*every \*chance he gets, or he makes every throw needed to pull a game out in the fourth quarter. The point is that he has done it a number of times. Including his last drive in his last super bowl. Montana, Elway, et. al. all failed too. But they also succeeded in the biggest games on the biggest stage. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The second is that first sentence. “When you think of QBs who have that ‘it’ factor like Joe Montana,” you’re thinking of the quarterbacks in retrospect who you already know won the Super Bowl. You can’t tell me, right now, who in the NFL or in college has that thing you’re talking about and who does not, based only on observing them. You can only tell me they have it after they win. Absolutely agree. No one knows. If they did, draft days wouldn’t produce busts like Ryan Leaf or Tim Couch. I think at the NFL level, the “it” factor develops over a career. If I could tell coming out of college each year who would be the best QB out of the class, I’d be making a boatload of money working for some NFL team. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Do you follow baseball at all? Do you, by any chance, hate Alex Rodriguez? For years and years it was the most commonly accepted truism in the sport that Alex Rodriguez would put up great numbers and never help you win. It was perfectly acceptable sports journalism to say that since A-Rod is such a choke, he actually hurts his team rather than helping – he is a guy you don’t want on your roster. This was because he never got his team over the hump – he “always” failed in the big at-bat, the big series. And a smaller community of stubborn analytical types always argued, no, it’s a small sample size, he’s a great player and you want him on your team more than almost any other player, you can’t weave a handful of games into a picture of him as a player. But it was a joke to say that to most baseball fans – they’d laugh and talk about chokers and losers, maybe talk about spreadsheets and mom’s basement, etc. > > Last year A-Rod hit about .400 in the playoffs and hit six huge home runs. He was the best player on the field every game, and the Yankees won the World Series. The funny thing about it was that after the playoffs were over, his postseason statistics for his career were _identical_ to his regular season ones. His long-awaited explosion and his development of that “it” factor that had been so obviously lacking to so many people’s eyes could be easily explained by dumb luck. In Rodriguez’ case, that thing that separated him from the greats – which he was absolutely massacred for for years and years – appears to have been statistical noise; regular ups and downs. Anybody that had bet on his lack of clutch would have been sorely disappointed, while anybody who had looked to his overall career performance to speak to how good a player he’d be in an important game would have been expecting it. It may surprise you to know, but I do not, and have never, hated A-Rod. I would love it if he were on my favorite team. But, I do not know his personal statistics during the playoffs and world series. I know he had a great series last year… but what was his performance before last year? And here is my theory… A-Rod getting over the “hump” last year has made him much more valuable than he ever was, and if he gets another chance at a post-season, whatever “monkey” was on his back is now gone. I also don’t know Derek Jeter’s numbers, but if I could pick one guy to have on my team going into the playoffs, I’d like Jeter. To me, he seems like Mr. Clutch. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > And that’s really all I’m saying. When we say “Bad luck? Perhaps.” I think we ought to appreciate the power of that statement. Nobody’s ever done it until they have, and we really have no basis to decide who never will, except to say, you know, the awful players are less likely and the great ones are more likely. I think this sums it up very well. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/225 "2010-04-15T18:03:28Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The important thing, to me, is whether the guy is playing uncharacteristically poorly in a way that requires some kind of intangible explanation. To my eye, he has not. (To answer the question, the Eagles drove 80 yards in 4 minutes to score the touchdown that put them down 3, and then got the ball back at the 4 yard line with 46 seconds left, at which point yes, he “failed” to have enough poise to get the 96 yards. He was criticized for taking too long to get the first touchdown, you may recall). As I recall he puked during that 4:00 touchdown drive, contributing to it taking far too long. Am I misremembering the timing of the puke? (I easily could be.) Regardless of whether or not he puked during that drive, he clearly lost the game with bad clock management on that drive. Eagles got the ball on their own 21 with 5:40 left in the game down by two scores. Here’s how that drive broke down: 4 yard pass for 30 seconds 4 yard pass for 18 seconds (clock saved by successful coach’s challenge) 5 yard pass for 33 seconds 2 yard pass for 34 seconds Incomplete 10 yard pass for 6 seconds (out of bounds) Incomplete Scramble (no gain) for 33 seconds 11 yard pass for 35 seconds Incomplete 13 yard pass for 14 seconds (clock stops at 2:00 warning) Incomplete 30 yard touchdown pass This took the game clock down from 5:40 to 1:50. Describing it as a 4 minute touchdown drive is disingenuous because it disregards the context, which looms very large in that situation. Specifically that time is of the essence so you should not be dinking and dunking, but if you do you should at very least not be spending the entire play clock between each dink and dunk. I think it’s very fair to criticize McNabb for this drive. It’s even worse if he puked during it, but that’s not necessary for this to be a valid criticism. I know Andy Reid isn’t the greatest clock manager, but even still the coach shouldn’t have been a factor in any of the snaps where the clock was running. That’s a hurry-up situation, which is the sole domain of the QB. EDIT: They had two timeouts left when the above drive started, and didn’t use any. They used both on the subsequent Patriots drive after a failed onside kick. (If you pocket your timeouts you should kick away, not onside kick, at least IMO.) ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/226 "2010-04-15T18:07:28Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > I just don’t see the big deal. The Skins have a definite upgrade at QB here and still have the #4 pick. McNabb is by most objective measures, a very good QB. Yep; he doesn’t have a ring. You can list many great QBs that retired ringless…Marino, et al. Just having a QB that knows what it feels like to win consistently is a big plus. He’s not in bad shape or anything. Sure, he’s not going to carry them to the playoffs on his shoulders, but he can certainly help a lot. They can take up to 2-4 years to draft and develop his succsessor. Not a bad spot to be in, IMHO. I agree with the idea that he is an upgrade on Jason Campbell. I notice you are in NoVa, so I’m assuming you are a 'skins fan. Was Campbell ever given a real chance to develop, or was he someone who just got caught in a bad situation where his offensive coord. changed every year and he never had a chance to develop? Now THAT’S bad luck. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/227 "2010-04-15T18:48:55Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Then it would be equally be ludicrous that anyone with no training could diagnose McNabb as being mentally strong (or whatever your beliefs on McNabb) by watching them play and interview on TV. Face it. You have as much credibility as I do. And if my made any claim to the relative strength of Mcnabb’s mentally you would have a point. I didn’t and wouldn’t, my analysis is purely on his actual performance on the field. > [@](#): > > Really? Then you would agree that sports psychologists are a sham and voodoo medicine, because anyone that has reached the pinnacle of their sport (in this case the NFL) would by your definition not lack in confidence. It would also be fair to say that losing confidence would not be possible in your world either, right? McNabb is still bothered by the fact that Eagle fans booed when he was drafted. I can understand a 22 year old senior being bummed about it, but the idiots that booed him were not booing HIM, but rather the fact that the Eagles didn’t take Ricky Williams. And yet, he still seems bothered by it. So all sports psychologists deal with is lack of confidence? I would say that any sports psychologist who diagnosed Mcnabb without even talking to him directly would be a sham. And if someone analysed Mcnabb with no training solely based on a few comments by teammates and actions on the field, it isn’t worth putting any stock into. I have no reason to think Mcnabb does or doesn’t lack confidence, other than, in general, people who have had as much success as he has usually aren’t lacking in that department. > [@](#): > > Sure people do. That’s not surprising to you, is it? When comparing QB’s of the same era, for example, what yardstick do you think most people use? Championships, maybe? I don’t know if McNabb is immature or insecure. I don’t know why Favre can’t let go and retire. I can take a guess, though. It doesn’t surprise me. It is silly to argue individual players on team accomplishments, but it certainly does and will happen. My back of the envelope math earlier said a qb is about 14% of the reason a team wins or loses and that didn’t even take into account effects of coaching. Play with the numbers anyway you like, but the rest of the team combined as much more affect on whether a team wins or loses than the qb. Oh and my guess on Farve keeps coming back because he really likes playing football, but again not a trained psychologist who has spoken to him. > [@](#): > > I agree with most of this (except the fact that you are annoyed. Why get annoyed over someone’s opinion? I don’t agree with yours. but it’s not annoying me). Well, I’m not that annoyed. I just don’t think playing should have their mental capacities insulted for physical failings. > [@](#): > > It’s not like the Eagles were OK for one or two good seasons and didn’t win. The Eagles were one of the best teams in the NFC during the past 7-8 years. That’s a long time to be unlucky. That is a long time to be really good as well. It is also unlucky, but not that unlucky. Let’s say the Eagles were on average on of the 4 best teams in the nfc. You would expect them to win 1 super bowl in 8 years. They won 0, which is all of one game less than expected. Easily explained variance by small sample size alone. > [@](#): > > Look. Believe what you believe. I’m fine with that. I am free to believe what I believe, also. if you love McNabb because as an Eagle fan he did more for your franchise than any other QB in your lifetime, I’m not going to rain on your parade. I can appreciate that. Hell, if the Pittsburgh Pirates made the playoffs, I’d be beyond thrilled, so if you are an Eagle and McNabb fan, I can understand your perspective and your annoyance at someone like me who, in your opinion, doesn’t give him his due. Whoever said I was an Eagle fan? ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/228 "2010-04-15T19:15:27Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Well, I’m not that annoyed. I just don’t think playing should have their mental capacities insulted for physical failings. Not being able to handle pressure (known as “choking”, I’m sure you’ve heard the term) doesn’t mean I think the guy needs to go to a rubber room, or have his belt and shoe strings taken from him. :dubious: > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Whoever said I was an Eagle fan? Apparently, I did! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/229 "2010-04-15T19:52:06Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I agree with the idea that he is an upgrade on Jason Campbell. I notice you are in NoVa, so I’m assuming you are a 'skins fan. Was Campbell ever given a real chance to develop, or was he someone who just got caught in a bad situation where his offensive coord. changed every year and he never had a chance to develop? Now THAT’S bad luck. This wasn’t addressed to me, but I’ll answer it anyway. I’m from NoVa and I don’t think he was really given a fair chance. Like Patrick Ramsey before him, Jason Campbell was given a porous offensive line and a yearly change to his playbook, and that will delay any quarterback’s development. As an aside, I also don’t think that Zorn was ready to be a head coach. Some guys, Andy Reid for example, can go from coaching QBs to the whole team overnight and be successful at it, but the majority can’t. I think the team would’ve been much better off if they’d promoted Gregg Williams and hired Zorn to be the OC. The team would’ve had the continuity that Snyder kept promising, and Zorn could’ve focused on the offense and grown into the job. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/230 "2010-04-15T20:00:25Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I agree with the idea that he is an upgrade on Jason Campbell. I notice you are in NoVa, so I’m assuming you are a 'skins fan. Was Campbell ever given a real chance to develop, or was he someone who just got caught in a bad situation where his offensive coord. changed every year and he never had a chance to develop? Now THAT’S bad luck. Actually, I’m not a Skins fan, though I would rather they win than lose, I suppose. I think that it’s a combination of him not getting a proper chance, i.e. getting a chance to improve under one system. But I didn’t really see any real flashes of brilliance from Campbell, either, and even in bad systems, etc. you’d see the occaisional “whoa!” play. Don’t recall much of that with him. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/231 "2010-04-15T21:11:03Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > I’ve heard Shanahan has a reputation for finding ways to run the ball well with far less at the RB position than the Redskins have. Yeah, its called “cut-blocking” or in layman parlance, “cheap-shotting”. > [@Marley23](#): > > Sampras threw up in that QF because of dehydration, and he won the match and went on to win the tournament that year. (And he threw up once, not six times.) Whether McNabb puked because of dehydration, nerves, a stomach bug, or something else, I don’t know. Unless somebody can really show he got sick because he was nervous I can’t hold that against him. Yup, and Jamie Foxx used to barf during every game in _Any Given Sunday_. I sense a trend. Black QB’s barf more than white QB’s! ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/232 "2010-04-15T22:49:00Z")
I’m at peace with this, because as a Redskin fan I never hated McNabb. He’s a competitor, plays in a tough city but never whined or bitched about how he was treated, and dammit, he’s good. Campbell, unfortunately, lost some confidence during the Zorn era and I don’t see him getting it back. He needs a new start, so I actually think this is a win-win. Dude was the definition of deer in headlights - hesitant to make passes, couldn’t throw the ball away when he needed to, too afraid (or slow?) to break out of the pocket and scramble when needed. McNabb is older, but a very smart guy. He’s not going to lose games through decision making, and with the Shanahans calling plays and coaching it won’t be lost there either. I don’t trust gimmick system QBs - Kolb, as a Houston product, fits this. I know he had some good performances when McNabb was out but I don’t know about this one. Eagles management never got quality WRs around McNabb (but he did have a good O-line) during his prime, and the NFC East was so weak in the late 90s they could have easily cashed in a Superbowl victory or two during this time. I think you can win and do quite well in the league with a smart, mistake free QB, decent run game, and solid D. That’s how Dilfer and others won rings. It could happen in DC. Bottom line, he’s going to be appreciated in Washington, which the guy deserves, and Philly never seemed to give to him. (I remember the tools that booed him when the Iggles drafted him instead of Ricky Williams. History has shown that the franchise came out on top with that move.) Just to clarify, I’m not saying that the Skins are Superbowl ready. But they are easily an 8-8, 9-7 team and can make it to the playoffs as assembled (assuming they do some work on the O line), just by having a savvy QB and smart coach on their side. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/233 "2010-04-19T17:16:05Z")
Missed this earlier > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m not sure that the number of players who go elsewhere and star is really a counter to what I’m saying, since even if there were literally none, that would certainly not do much to dispel the notion that Reid thinks his players are better than they are. The fact that Todd Pinkston didn’t play anywhere else after the Eagles were done with him, I’d say, is proof that he was a shitty player that Reid overvalued in the first place, not proof that the Eagles were doing a good job hanging on to their talent. Oh, I agree completely; my point wasn’t that they didn’t make mistakes, just that their mistakes tend to be ones of overpatience and caution. > [@](#): > > But to answer your question, **furt** , I think that there are examples on defense, but none on offense, so I should amend my criticism. Derrick Burgess’ 27 sacks in two years immediately post-Eagles and Al Harris’ 100 starts for the Packers come to mind. Rod Hood’s been a good player, but fairly expensive so that’s a tossup (but he’s definitely better than Joselio Hanson is). I’d certainly rather have Michael Lewis starting than Considine. Burgess is obviously a guy they should have kept, and ditto Lewis, though the difference there is not that great, IMHO. The CBs, though, were salary-cap decisions. Both Harris and Hood had played well enough as nickelbacks to earn starting-CB offers from other teams; there was no keeping them without paying it. Hood basically failed as a starter. Harris has not, but he left because they had Lito Shepperd and Sheldon Brown under long contracts. I guess you could argue that they should have resigned Harris and used the Shepperd pick elsewhere, but that still would have cost them money (possibly the money they used for TO and Kearse the next year). > [@](#): > > So maybe instead of saying Reid overvalues his own players across the board, I should say that I think he overvalues his ability to succeed with subpar talent in certain positions. In the end it’s the same – I think his personnel decisions come from a sense that he can succeed as a coach without spending money on anybody but a corner, a tackle, a defensive lineman or a quarterback. Maybe he _doesn’t_ think the linebackers and safeties and receivers he drafts actually are that good, but he obviously thinks they’re good enough that he can win with them. And I’d be a fool not to acknowledge that he can win a lot of games that way (and that as you point out, all things being equal it’s much better to keep a mediocre player than take a chance on a new mediocre player, even notwithstanding that a new player will cost more), but that’s the root of their long-term very-good not-greatness, in my eyes, because they just seem to never have enough really excellent players on the field. I guess; as I said, I think it has more to do with playcalling and game-management deficiencies than with team construction. Whatever he’s done, he’s had enough success that, with the addition of a few lucky plays, he’d have three conference titles and a ring. I don’t think we should ever lose sight of that. As frustrating as it is, IMO he’s earned the right to do it his way. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/234 "2010-04-19T17:38:00Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I haven’t had a chance to read all the posts since my last post in this thread, but in skimming page 4, I came across this one and thought I’d reply quickly. > > I think we can both agree that the Redskins will win more than 4 games this year. I am happy to admit that. Your parameters on this “wager” aren’t realistic, and do not reflect my personal opinion on how the Redskins will do this year. > > A similar bet would be if you believe that McNabb is going to be such a major upgrade from Campbell, then pick a win total… how about 12? 11? What do you think their record will be? Are they making the playoffs or not? If Jason Campbell is the QB for the Redskins this year, I believe they win more than 4 games… so how about you give me an idea of how the Redskins will do this year with McNabb? > > Shanahan is a significant upgrade at head coach over Jim Zorn. I can see that being worth 2-3 games on this one move alone. The Redskins also have a very good defense, and if I recall correctly, they lost a number of very close games during last season’s 4-12 record. > > I’ll get back to you later with more… if I get a chance later tonight, I’ll catch up on the thread and get back on track. Your claim was that [QUOTE=You] He will crash and burn in DC, and I for one, can’t wait for the meltdown. [/QUOTE] If McNabb is healthy all season, I would predict the Skins to have between 6 and 9 wins this year. That’s a major improvement, and one I’d bet most Skins fans would be happy to see. Personally, I can’t see how a QB who helps a team double its win total is “crashing and burning” or “melting down.” How about _you_ define what those terms mean. QB rating under 80? No more than 6 wins? You tell us what a horrible, terrible season McNabb will have. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/235 "2010-04-19T17:44:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Moreover, they could have re-signed Kolb for reasonable money. In the case of the Packers, the obvious precedent, there was no chance they’d get Rodgers re-signed, and Favre threatened to retire every offseason. Apparently not true; PFT reported that Kolb told the team that if he wasn’t starting this season, he wouldn’t want to resign after it. He could have been bluffing, but you can see how they may not have wanted to bet on it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/236 "2010-04-20T07:34:24Z")
> [@furt](#): > > If McNabb is healthy all season, I would predict the Skins to have between 6 and 9 wins this year. That’s a major improvement, and one I’d bet most Skins fans would be happy to see. 6 seems low to me. I’d peg them from 7 to 9 wins, with an outside shot at double digits. The Redskins didn’t suck; their coaching staff did. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/237 "2010-04-20T08:37:26Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Your claim was that If McNabb is healthy all season, I would predict the Skins to have between 6 and 9 wins this year. That’s a major improvement, and one I’d bet most Skins fans would be happy to see. > > Personally, I can’t see how a QB who helps a team double its win total is “crashing and burning” or “melting down.” How about _you_ define what those terms mean. QB rating under 80? No more than 6 wins? You tell us what a horrible, terrible season McNabb will have. My definition of crash and burn is that McNabb will not be as good a QB in DC as he was in Philly, and he will fail to deliver a championship, which is what he wants and needs to shut people like me up. He will be out of a starting job within 2 years, and he will be out of the league within 3. He is a better QB than Campbell, but that doesn’t mean much. He’ll win more than 4 games, but that doesn’t mean much either. If he’s a franchise QB, with that defense and the added weapons on offense, they should be a playoff team and a contender for the NFC title, right? Why else do you bring in McNabb unless you are trying to win now? I just don’t believe he will win a super bowl. This is not Shanahan coaching John Elway at the end of his career to two straight SB wins. This is McNabb. My vision is that he will play well enough for the Redskins to excite the fan base, contend for the playoffs, and will ultimately fail along the way, and ultimately be a failure in Washington. The draft will give some clue as to the Redskins plans. If they take a QB, McNabb will simply be a placeholder until that QB is ready. Not exactly how I’d define a franchise-level QB. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/238 "2010-04-20T13:27:45Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The Redskins didn’t suck; their coaching staff did. They did get old awful quick, though. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/239 "2010-04-20T13:42:56Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > 6 seems low to me. I’d peg them from 7 to 9 wins, with an outside shot at double digits. > > The Redskins didn’t suck; their coaching staff did. Eh, their OL is one of the worst in the league and their offensive skill players are middling at best. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962/240 "2010-04-20T15:10:19Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > My definition of crash and burn is that McNabb will not be as good a QB in DC as he was in Philly, In this context, “Not as good” is meaningless if you can’t quantify it. > [@](#): > > and he will fail to deliver a championship, which is what he wants and needs to shut people like me up. So wait … by “crash and burn,” you mean “fail to turn one of the worst teams in the league into a champion?” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > If he’s a franchise QB, with that defense and the added weapons on offense, they should be a playoff team and a contender for the NFC title, right? The defense that went 4-12? The addition of a bunch of has-been RBs? Joe Montana in his prime wouldn’t win a ring with this rabble. > [@](#): > > Why else do you bring in McNabb unless you are trying to win now? I just don’t believe he will win a super bowl. Neither do I. But your claim was that he would “crash and burn” and “melt down,” not merely that he wouldn’t win a ring. > [@](#): > > He will be out of a starting job within 2 years, and he will be out of the league within 3. Ah … now we have a testable statement; two in fact. I will wager $100 that at the end of the 2011 season, Donovan McNabb will still be starter in the NFL. Additionally, I will wager $100 that he is still on an NFL roster at the end of the 2012 season. The deal is null if McNabb has a career-ending injury or if he retires voluntarily while still an effective player. \*\*Omni \*\*or **Hamlet** or **Ellis** or **NRATB** can be arbiter. Deal, or do you want to wimp out? > [@](#): > > The draft will give some clue as to the Redskins plans. If they take a QB, McNabb will simply be a placeholder until that QB is ready. Your command of the obvious is breathtaking to behold. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcnabb-now-a-redskin/534962.md?page=13)