# McVeigh and Racial Profiling **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 11, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355 "2006-08-11T21:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/41 "2006-08-12T14:03:40Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > People bring this up from time to time, but I’m not sure it’s meaningful. I’m not sure that merely being Muslim, in and of itself, gets people to feel any specific sympathy for Al Qaeda and their ilk. Besides … wouldn’t this have been successfully executed by now? > > Does AQ, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., even have a significant number of non-Arabs in their ranks? Perhaps enough to count on two hands … _perhaps_ … but I’m betting not even that many. This most recent stuff in UK was with Pakistanis who aren’t Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/42 "2006-08-12T14:47:13Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > This most recent stuff in UK was with Pakistanis who aren’t Arabs. … not sufficiently different, IMHO. I understand, of course, that they _are_ different … but Al Qaeda operates in close geographic proximity to Pakistan. To me, getting more than a few Bosnian or Malaysian AQ (or insert other anti-West Muslim terror group) members would be pretty surprising – but not getting some Pakistanis. The hook is not so much “Arab vs. non-Arab”, once I give it second thought. It’s a litttle broader than that, but not much. Once you add Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan to the list of nations in the greater Arabic-speaking world … that seems to cover the geographical terror base that threatens the West (specifically excluding Russia) right there. Heck … it doesn’t even look like Central Asian Muslims can be bothered. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/43 "2006-08-12T15:00:03Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > McVeigh was a lone nut. He wasn’t a part of any organization dedicated to killing anyone. He wasn’t a lonr nut by definition because at least one other person (Terry Nichols) went to prison for the crimes as well and they were involved in militia organizations that may or may be involved. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/44 "2006-08-12T15:10:36Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > So let’s not search every single 30 yr old dark-skinned man with a beard and an Arabic accent… But can we all agree that there is no need to search 70 year old grey-haired grandmothers with southern accents? “Now I’m against any kind of racial profiling, but come on, people, we need to use a little common sense at the airport. I was flying out of Tucson, Arizona, once. Do you know who lives in Tucson, Arizona? The _oldest people in the world._ I am standing in line with all these tiny little Ewoks and Yodas, and they’re searching all of them. They’ve got this one little old lady in front, they’re going through her straw handbaaaaag… looking at her haaaankie… ‘Did you want a butterscotch? You seem kinda fidgety… Take one for your friend too…’ And finally I felt like saying, 'Excuse me. I believe I speak for everyone here when I say, she is _ninety-two years old!_ She is _four foot ten!_ If she tries to start something on the plane, _ **I think I can take her!** _” - Suzanne Westenhoefer (Note: I think racial profiling is ineffective and dangerous for the reasons **tomndebb** mentioned. The Canadian author Rohinton Mistry cancelled a book tour in 2002 because he was being pulled over for “a random check” and thoroughly searched at every single airport he went to in the U.S. He is of Indian ancestry.) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/45 "2006-08-12T15:23:19Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Thanks to this thread I am now in favor of arresting all cleancut, slender, fit, white guys. Personally, I’m all for the profiling of unbalanced male teenagers. Columbine killers, mailbox bombers. Especially artsy loner types. But doesn’t have to be white - it isn’t racial - the Red Lake kid was Native American. And don’t assume that those loners are safe when they get out, or they turn into McVeigh or Kaczynski. We never did get the anthrax guy or the Tylenol killer. Some of these were random nutcases, but I’m don’t feel any safer from a random nutcase than a nutcase with an agenda. If I get killed by a random nutcase, I’m just as dead. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/46 "2006-08-12T16:29:26Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > You got to number three before your list broke down. That dude wasn’t a terrorist. He was a really, really unbalanced kid who wasn’t even trying to hurt anyone for any reason, agenda driven or otherwise. > > If that’s the best list of non-middle eastern “terrorists” you can come up with, then doesn’t that prove the OP’s point. Umm, that kid, is not the only person to ever burn down a church. How about this Members of the Ku Klux Klan as terrorists? Or the Aryan Nation as terroists? Or members of religious cults as terrorists (Jim Jones, David Koresh) or People who are anti-abortion zealots Anybody who just looks like they could be one of those people should be ‘checked out’. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/47 "2006-08-12T16:31:44Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Does AQ, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., even have a significant number of non-Arabs in their ranks? Perhaps enough to count on two hands … _perhaps_ … but I’m betting not even that many. And that was my point early on. If AQ has to try to avoid the profile and staff a large scale attack with only non-middle easterners, would they have enough to pull it off? Are there really enough of these moronic disillusioned teenagers like Walker Lindh to do it? I’d really doubt it. Or else this most recent plot would have involved them. Even if they found 20 such people, they’d be scraping the bottom of the barrel rather than choosing the 20 best fit. Can I ask an honest question? There was about a 24 hour period between when it was announced that this large scale attack was foiled and they annouced suspects names. Did anyone think for a second that this plan was hatched by non-middle easterners? If there had been Vegas odds on it, what would they have been? 1000-1 in favor? Probably more. It isn’t just a “profile”. At this point it’s a modus operandi. I know that the same thing could have been said after Oklahoma City, and in that one case you would have won the bet. But that would have been a long shot bet. VERY much the exception. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/48 "2006-08-12T16:36:56Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Members of the Ku Klux Klan as terrorists? > > Or the Aryan Nation as terroists? > > Or members of religious cults as terrorists (Jim Jones, David Koresh) > > or People who are anti-abortion zealots > > Anybody who just looks like they could be one of those people should be ‘checked out’. The KKK are terrorists, yes. These days, largely irrelevant and comical terrorists. Aryan Nation a bit more concerning than the KKK, but also not terribly relevant. Definitely terrorists though. Anti-abortion zealots? Depends. If you’re talking about protestors, then no. If you’re talking about bombers (or those who threaten violence), then definitely terrorists. When was the last abortion clinic bombing? Wasn’t that a thing that pretty much stopped in the 90s? I’m not saying that these guys don’t still exist and aren’t still a problem. None of these people have shown any interest in blowing up a plane. So, there would be no reason to profile them at the airport. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/49 "2006-08-12T16:59:57Z")
> [@black rabbit](#): > > If I were and al-Qaeda recruiter, and the US started concentrating exclusively on Arabs and Persians at baggage checkpoints, I’d look for my next batch of cannon fodder from the 500,000 Chinese, 200,000,000 Indonesian,or 8,000,000 Somali Muslims, among others. > > Once the US took the rather useemly step of only letting _white_ people through without being searched, I’m sure I could find a half dozen dudes to go wreck shit among the 300,000 or so Albanian Muslims, not to mention the Chechens, Bosnians, Kosovars, etc. Let’s say you are right. That they could, and would, do this. Why would they? It would be because profiling had been an effective deterrent, correct? Otherwise, they wouldn’t bother? The answer is they wouldn’t. So you are advocating abandoning what would be an effective deterrent because the enemy would try to find an answer around it in the future. I don’t think that is a valid criterion for employing or not employing a crimefighting tool. Sounds like just another excuse as to why we shouldn’t hurt anyone’s feelings. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/50 "2006-08-12T17:14:15Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Umm, that kid, is not the only person to ever burn down a church. > > How about this > > Members of the Ku Klux Klan as terrorists? > > Or the Aryan Nation as terroists? > > Or members of religious cults as terrorists (Jim Jones, David Koresh) > > or People who are anti-abortion zealots > > Anybody who just looks like they could be one of those people should be ‘checked out’. How about what? Cultists like Jones and Koresh aren’t terrorists. They’re charlatans and conmen with a God-complex. Members of the Aryan nation are a bunch of bigots who like to get in fights and spew their idiocy with the result of making fools of themselves. If they were to systematically create acts of murder or violence they could elevate themselves to terrorist network status. But as far as I am aware, that’s not currently the case. The KKK was a terrorist organization. When? When they were committing acts of terrorism. Anti-abortion zealots where a targeted group when their were the bombings and killings. Now, my guess is, that they are being watched. But here is the main thing you gloss over. Racial profiling would only be effective if the group was a minority. If you’re looking at a group f Chinese terrorists in China, racial profiling won’t be too useful. If you’re looking for a group of them in Jackson Mississippi, or Wales, or Guatemala, it might be pretty effective. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/51 "2006-08-12T18:25:29Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Yeah, cause you have to be a fucking genius to take someone hostage with a boxcutter. Granted that a majority of people on any given airplane would be able to take a hostage with a box cutter, I’d wager that it takes some smarts to coordinate an attack on the scale of 9/11, sneak 19 people capable of learning to fly an airliner into the country and train them in American flight schools, and fast-talk your way through an airport screening process, all without attracting the attention of the FBI or similar organizations. Honestly, it’s a complex and dangerous undertaking, and it did take some intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/52 "2006-08-12T19:03:26Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > And that was my point early on. If AQ has to try to avoid the profile and staff a large scale attack with only non-middle easterners, would they have enough to pull it off? Are there really enough of these moronic disillusioned teenagers like Walker Lindh to do it? I’d really doubt it. Or else this most recent plot would have involved them. > > Even if they found 20 such people, they’d be scraping the bottom of the barrel rather than choosing the 20 best fit. > > Can I ask an honest question? There was about a 24 hour period between when it was announced that this large scale attack was foiled and they annouced suspects names. Did anyone think for a second that this plan was hatched by non-middle easterners? If there had been Vegas odds on it, what would they have been? 1000-1 in favor? Probably more. It isn’t just a “profile”. At this point it’s a modus operandi. > > I know that the same thing could have been said after Oklahoma City, and in that one case you would have won the bet. But that would have been a long shot bet. VERY much the exception. I think they can recruit non-Arabs. I work for a company that has a large presence in Malyasia - there is apparently a lot of sympathy for Jihadists in the Far East - particularly Malyasia and Indoensia. I suspect you can find a lot of sympathy in parts of Africa as well. Now, I suppose you could argue that “they” still don’t look like “us” - but now we are profiling more people. And when you start profiling nearly everyone, you profile no one. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/53 "2006-08-12T21:03:13Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Once you add Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan to the list of nations in the greater Arabic-speaking world … They don’t really speak Arabic in Iran (1% of the population), or at all in Pakistan or Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/54 "2006-08-12T21:19:06Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Now, I suppose you could argue that “they” still don’t look like “us” - but now we are profiling more people. And when you start profiling nearly everyone, you profile no one. I hear what you’re saying, and I can’t say that I totally disagree. But, until they prove that they can recruit heavily in Malyasia, I think we have to profile based on what we have seen. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be mindful of what we might see in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/55 "2006-08-12T21:37:57Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Heck … it doesn’t even look like Central Asian Muslims can be bothered. They are, as fairly recent subjects of the USSR, preoccupied with internal political struggles, either against their own secular government, or against Russian influence. Though some may choose not to believe it, a monolithic war against the U.S. by Islamic nations is not in the cards. Some of them have other concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/56 "2006-08-13T14:59:54Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I hear what you’re saying, and I can’t say that I totally disagree. But, until they prove that they can recruit heavily in Malyasia, I think we have to profile based on what we have seen. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be mindful of what we might see in the future. [http://www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/FAD/sea.htm](http://www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/FAD/sea.htm) There is no doubt they recuit in Southeast Asia - nor has there been any doubt since the 1980s. They also recruit in Chechnya. They don’t need to heavily recruit, they need to recruit enough to get a few suckers who don’t look like Arabs willing to carry bombs. ONE guy can carry a dirty bomb or bioterrorism weapon. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/57 "2006-08-14T19:56:48Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > Pulling over a black man because he’s driving a new car is bad. > > However, that being said; If you see a group of white teenagers driving around in their new car Mommy and Daddy bought for them with ONE older black man wearing tattered clothes ridding with them; as a cop, you SO want to pull these people over because you know these kids are trying to score drugs. So if you see a group of white teenagers driving around in their new car Mommy and Daddy bought for them with ONE older _white_ man wearing tattered clothes ridding with them – that’s okay? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/58 "2006-08-14T20:57:50Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > They don’t really speak Arabic in Iran (1% of the population), or at all in Pakistan or Afghanistan. That’s right. I was delineating a geographical area comprising the Arab-speaking world, plus those those three nations. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/59 "2006-08-15T11:10:47Z")
I think the argument is looking at the problem of profiling the wrong way around. It’s not necessarily that there is a danger of other groups (let’s say white folks, cos that’s basically what it comes down to) getting involved in AQ and committing atrocities. The real danger comes when we presume guilt because of the colour of someone’s skin and therefore regard all they do as highly suspicious. I’m thinking specifically of that woman on the plane who wrote a highly inflammatory piece a couple of years ago - but more specifically the tragic case of [Menezes](http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550565,00.html) which is now, finally, hitting the fan! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355/60 "2006-08-21T15:03:18Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Is _anyone_ suggesting that racial profiling be the _only_ criteria? I believe there are people out there saying almost exactly this. The conversation runs something like this: I don’t look arab so why the heck are they hassling me; or that guy look arab, why aren’t they searching him instead of me? At an airport security checkpoint, how much more detailed can the profiling get? If you want to profile potetnial terrorists in the USA, then you use all those fancy schmancy profiling techniques but all you can do is go by appearance (and perhaps accent) at an airport security checkpoint. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcveigh-and-racial-profiling/368355.md?page=4)