# Mean is great!

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-is-great/706770>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [December 9, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-is-great/706770 "2014-12-09T16:51:15Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 5\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-is-great/706770/1 "2014-12-09T16:51:15Z")

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Someone might say ‘I make a **mean** pot of chilli!’ I believe that originally, statements like that were self-depreciating ways of saying you to something well. That is, a person might be saying that he makes a pot of chilli that’s not especially good nor especially bad. He’s saying it’s ‘just average’. In fact, he’s saying that he makes an exceptionally good pot of chilli; but he’s being humble.

Nowadays I get the impression that when someone uses ‘mean’ to describe something he does well, he uses it in the sense of ‘vicious’; and ‘vicious’ means that it’s so good it’s like an assault on the senses. ‘Slap yo momma good’, as it were. (If I may digress without hijacking the OP in my own thread, I understand that last means something akin to ‘This food is so good, I want to punish my mother for not feeding me anything this good when I was growing up.’)

So here’s the question: If people who say ‘I make a **mean** [_X_]’ are actually using ‘mean’ in the sense of unkind and not in the sense of average, when did this shift of the **mean** ing take place?

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**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-is-great/706770/2 "2014-12-09T17:46:47Z")

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It’s a good question, because “mean” has so many meanings. My feeling, supported by a certain amount of Googling, is that the “mean” here didn’t start in the “inferior quality” sense, but in the sense of being vicious, or dangerous to one’s opponents. I see quotes like, “he throws a mean fastball”. That turn of phrase started being applied to other situations, even ones that didn’t involve a cowering opponent, and so “mean” added “great” to its long list of meanings.

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**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-is-great/706770/3 "2014-12-09T19:09:02Z")

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[Etymonline.com](http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mean&searchmode=none)

> [@](#):
>
> Inverted sense of “remarkably good” (i.e. plays a mean saxophone) first recorded c.1900, perhaps from phrase no mean \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ “not inferior” (1590s, also, “not average,” reflecting further confusion with mean (n.)).

“No mean” was basically equivalent to a litote, as in “not unlike”. Usage often rubs off extra syllables, so changing “no mean” to “mean” was an easy step.

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**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-is-great/706770/4 "2014-12-09T19:16:23Z")

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Yeah, that’s sick. Extremely radical. One bad etymology. Totally dope.

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**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-is-great/706770/5 "2014-12-09T20:33:52Z")

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> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#):
>
> “No mean” was basically equivalent to a litote, as in “not unlike”. Usage often rubs off extra syllables, so changing “no mean” to “mean” was an easy step.

This usage is still attested today: “no mean feat” is a not uncommon phrase. 😉