# Mean People (and what to do about them). **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2001, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589 "2001-07-15T17:05:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![eunoia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eunoia/32/97_2.png) [@eunoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eunoia)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/41 "2001-07-27T00:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BlinkingDuck \* > **You all have it all wrong! Some people are mean so they can be left alone!** Sounds pretty intelligent to me. I’d also suggest that equating meanness with intelligence is a fallacy. At the risk of supplying only “anecdotal evidence”, Schopenhauer was a mean son-of-a-bitch, he hated everybody, everybody hated him, but his 38 strategems for eristic dialectic could edify even our hyper-intelligent, beloved moderators. See how nice I’m being?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/42 "2001-08-01T06:03:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > \*\ ***Scylla** and **Zenster** , thank you both for some eminently readable, and thought-provoking posts. > > I learned in grade school that the verb “to be” can be confusing when used in the English language. This is because English has no pair of words that can distinguish between “to be” in the sense of being in a condition at a specified pooint in time (compare the Spanish _“Yo estoy bien”_ – I am well – I am well right now; that could change tomorrow), and "to be " in the sense of describing one’s intrinsic qualities (_“Yo soy bueno”_ – I am good – I am good always; goodness defines me). > > **Scylla** forgive the mangled Spanish, but the best way I can think of to describe the difference between what the two of you are talking about is that **Zenster** would allow you to say “_Yo estoy [mean]_”, but would object to you saying “_Yo soy [mean]_”. OTOH, using **Zenster** ’s meaning for the word “mean”, a Truth Serum administered to **tomndebb** ’s executive would elicit the statement “_Yo soy mean_.” > > Also please forgive my gross oversimplification of the concept of Truth Serum, and its effects. \*\* I was re-reading this thread tonight and I was complelled to applaud your post, **kaylasdad99**. You buttonholed the precise mismatch between **Scylla** ’s and my own points being made. I am not so much referring to a decent person (like **Scylla** ) going through what, to someone unfamiliar with the situation, \*might be perceived as \* being mean to another. This would be more of the case of “_Yo estoy [mean]_”. Whereas, the subject of the debate involves truly mean people. People who voluntarily do what is easily perceived as mean, as in “_Yo soy [mean]_”. [_Sidebar_: **Scylla** , just because it made you feel good to have intentionally addressed your relative in what would seem to be an abusive fashion, still doesn’t make you truly mean. Fishing priviliges are akin to a campers obligation to the wilderness. You always try to leave the place looking nicer than when you found it. Endangering your own family with their driving on \*your own \*property is such a grave offense that I still can’t see where you were so mean as you say you felt.] I’m talking about knowingly malicious conduct and intentional infraction of agreed upon rules. Much like people who consistently drive in a hazardous fashion. This sort of blatant disregard for human life is synonymous with meanness. It happens on a daily basis and I’m really curious as to how it has become so popular. (The “crowded rats” theory does enjoy some minor appeal at this juncture, but meanness is a rural feature as well.) I’m going to try and post a more complete reply to the most recent comments in this thread, but I first wanted to address this arcane but excellent distinction **kaylasdad99** made regarding the subject matter of this debate. Since I may not make it back to this thread for a while, I’ll leave a hint for everyone. Those of you who have to refered to meanness witnessed online, here and elsewhere may wish to consider what an exclusive minority we are. Much of the world has yet to be wired for electrical power and immature cybersniveling does not compare to the measnness mentioned only once or twice here like that of the African civil wars. For a fast summary of meanness inside our own borders, glance at a cross section of the general prison population. A quick sampling of violent offenders will promptly collate down to a marked reduction in average I.Q. test scores. Intelligence is rarely the strong suit of those that can take by force. The criminal mastermind is a bit more rare than Hollyweird would have us think. Those who countered my points have yet to post a really coherent theory of how it has become almost fashionable to be mean. The insouciant and disconnected air that characterized some of the recent generations is merely the beginning. There is a fascination with the antihero, (look at the popularity of Darth Vader). All of this is central to the acceptance and almost _chique_ aspect of violence and meanness today, be it worship of the thug life in rap productions or the neonazi skinhead mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/43 "2001-08-01T08:56:07Z")
I am mean when I am hurt, or when I am angry over not getting, or having things that I want. I mostly am mean to people who do something that makes me think they are in some way responsible for what hurt me, or prevented from having my desires. I am pretty smart, so I generally have very good excuses for being mean, and can make it look like I am being justifiably harsh, or strict, or making a judgment, rather than just being mean. Since I know being mean is wrong, it usually makes me feel worse, and if people contend with me at that moment, it is very easy to just be meaner than before. Since I am mostly very clever, and able to use words, those are the usual tools for my meanness. I have to work pretty hard after the fact to overcome a very small moment of meanness. I seem to be able to do a lot of damage to other people in a very short time, just saying mean things. Scorn is pretty mean, and sarcasm makes scorn seem so very clever. It really defines your contempt for someone to be scornful in a very subtly sarcastic way. Contempt is usually mean. Contempt for people that is, rather than contempt for acts. Since a lot of people find verbal ability to be an admirable thing, you can draw them into your meanness by being clever about being mean, and making a sort of game out of it. It can even seem very desirable by some people. If you do it often, pretty soon you will have lots of friends who make clever mean comments about everyone. You can all tell each other how much you admire each others telling wit, and clever sarcasm. Eventually you will be sure that everyone knows you are a complete asshole, and finds that to be your most significant personal attribute. You will have mostly friends who are like that too. It will be so very clever, and smart. And it will be very lonely and cold, too. Or, you can eat crow, and admit you have been a mean son of bitch, and start trying to be nicer. It takes longer, it gets less attention, is far less obviously admired publicly, and often is used by other assholes like you used to be to make you a target for their meanness. But eventually you will find the company more pleasant and you life a bit less lonely. But you can’t do anything about other mean people. Like most of life, it is a choice. ## Tris “Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ~ Carl Jung ~ ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/44 "2001-08-02T04:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > **…It takes longer, it gets less attention, is far less obviously admired publicly, and often is used by other assholes like you used to be to make you a target for their meanness. But eventually you will find the company more pleasant and your life a bit less lonely…** Great post, **Tris**. I wish that I’d had a chance to meet you when you were out here on the left coast. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/45 "2001-08-02T05:44:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > Great post, **Tris**. I wish that I’d had a chance to meet you when you were out here on the left coast. Well, I was in a snit over not seeing my granddaughter, so I was being mean, and just cut the trip short. I got over it later, but I managed to miss meeting a lot of nice folks out that way. It’s a good topic for a thread, really. ## Tris “If a person feels he can’t communicate, the least he can do is shut up about it.” ~ Tom Lehrer ~ ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/46 "2001-08-02T16:37:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _posted by Zenster_ > Since I may not make it back to this thread for a while, I’ll leave a hint for everyone. Those of you who have to refered to meanness witnessed online, here and elsewhere may wish to consider what an exclusive minority we are. This minority is illustrative of the point that meanness is not linked exclusively to intelligence. Intelligent people have the same capacity for meanness as unintelligent people. > [@](#): > > Much of the world has yet to be wired for electrical power and immature cybersniveling does not compare to the measnness mentioned only once or twice here like that of the African civil wars. The degree or scale of meanness is immaterial. Meanness, whether practiced by a few or many is still meanness. I would venture to say that people who are genuinely mean would be that way regardless of war or peace. Furthermore, “the African civil wars” are not significantly different in level of meanness than any other civil wars on this planet. > [@](#): > > For a fast summary of meanness inside our own borders, glance at a cross section of the general prison population. A quick sampling of violent offenders will promptly collate down to a marked reduction in average I.Q. test scores. Intelligence is rarely the strong suit of those that can take by force. The criminal mastermind is a bit more rare than Hollyweird would have us think. Being a criminal is not a hallmark of meanness, there are plenty of people who are mean who are highly intelligent and haven’t ever committed a crime. What about white collar criminals? Not all of us get our information from TV or movies. > [@](#): > > _posted by Zenster_ > So, the question remains, is meanness a viable method of conduct? Should it be rewarded or censured? I posit that meanness is a viable method of conduct, in that it does assist in the obtaining of goals. In a perfect world it would be unnecessary to use this method. If we hope to attain utopia, with people working together to everyone’s benefit, then of course it should be censured. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/47 "2001-08-03T01:52:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mornea \* > …Furthermore, “the African civil wars” are not significantly different in level of meanness than any other civil wars on this planet. I’m hard pressed to recall in recent memory a war where infants, children and women have routinely had their limbs hacked off solely for the sake of vengeance. > [@](#): > > Being a criminal is not a hallmark of meanness, there are plenty of people who are mean who are highly intelligent and haven’t ever committed a crime. What about white collar criminals? Not all of us get our information from TV or movies. Please note that I refered to “violent offenders” and not your usual run of the mill thief or crack dealer. And I was refering to how being mean is quite often the hallmark of the violent criminal, not vice versa. > [@](#): > > _posted by Zenster_ > So, the question remains, is meanness a viable method of conduct? Should it be rewarded or censured? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mornea \* > I posit that meanness is a viable method of conduct, in that it does assist in the obtaining of goals. In a perfect world it would be unnecessary to use this method. If we hope to attain utopia, with people working together to everyone’s benefit, then of course it should be censured. At least you’ve had the stones to take a stand on this topic. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![eunoia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eunoia/32/97_2.png) [@eunoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eunoia)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/48 "2001-08-03T02:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*This is not to say that I am incapable of being mean as well, it is just not my preferred choice of action. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*I maintain that meanness (in the absence of pathology) is a sign of sub-par mentality. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*At least you’ve had the stones to take a stand on this topic. Congratulations. \*\* Just because I brought up eristic dialectic is no reason to imply that I have no testicles. (definite sig possibilities) ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/49 "2001-08-03T15:01:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Zenster_ > Additionally, I define meanness as the unwarranted or unsolicited application of unnecessary force, coercion or unsympathetic behavior to the needless detriment of another or others. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by mornea …Furthermore, “the African civil wars” are not significantly different in level of meanness than any other civil wars on this planet. > > _posted by Zenster_ > I’m hard pressed to recall in recent memory a war where infants, children and women have routinely had their limbs hacked off solely for the sake of vengeance. How is hacking off limbs substantively different from shooting, burning, raping or otherwise maiming an individual? Using the definition of meanness you presented, the intention is still pretty much the same, which is why I say that the level of meanness isn’t that different. The injuries are just more imaginative. (I know that sounds sick and please don’t think that I agree in anyway with physically hurting people.) > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Zenster_ > At least you’ve had the stones to take a stand on this topic. Congratulations. I think it shows extremely poor form for you to insult me for responding to your comments and providing an opinion on a topic you offered for discussion. I suppose this doesn’t classify as being mean? ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2001, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/50 "2001-08-04T17:49:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mornea \* > … > > > [@](#): > > > > _originally posted by Zenster_ > > At least you’ve had the stones to take a stand on this topic. Congratulations. > > I think it shows extremely poor form for you to insult me for responding to your comments and providing an opinion on a topic you offered for discussion. I suppose this doesn’t classify as being mean? \*\* Pardon me, but where is the insult? My congratulations were sincere and my appreciation of the fact that you were on of the only people to take a significant stand on this issue was genuine. I am extremely curious as to why you have chosen to take offense at this. ---
**Author:** ![Myst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/59ef9b/32.png) [@Myst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myst)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2001, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/51 "2001-08-05T22:05:55Z")
I am disappointed by your innocence. The sad fact that you all refuse to admit, and avoid by looking into dictionary defintions (?) is that aggressiveness (and excuse me for using an additional term) is usually what seperates dominant individuals. If I could just pull you away from your optimistic views of the world to the hard basic one. People who are nice are stepped on, they’re sheep. Aggressive (and I don’t necessarily mean physically) people demand other peoples attention, while nice people are often overlooked. In many every day situations where a nice guy would give up, an aggressive guy will get what he wants. And that’s why Chicks Dig Jerks (as my buddy Bill would say). Aggressive people get things done, while nice people are at the mercy of other people. Who would you mate? Excuse my meanness here, boys. I’m usually nice. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/52 "2001-08-07T04:29:44Z")
> [@](#): > > you all refuse to admit Pretty broad brush, there. There have been several different viewpoints expressed. > [@](#): > > aggressiveness (and excuse me for using an additional term) is usually what seperates dominant individuals. And why would you immediately categorize aggressiveness as meaning meanness? I’m not at all sure why **Zenster** needs to believe that meanness indicates a lack of intelligence. However, associating meanness with an aggressive nature will require a lot more than some dictionary definition. I know a number of individuals with _aggressive_ personalities who _never_ stoop to behaving in ways that I would characterize as _mean_. Before you guys get too worked up over this issue, you’re going to have to have a serious round of terms definition. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/53 "2001-08-07T11:11:46Z")
I just want to chime in here, for the sake of argument, and expand on **Myst’s** post, above. Actually, the question posed by **Zenster** is backwards. The real mystery is nice people. Why be nice? It is, in fact, our nature to be self-centered, self-serving assholes. Even when we’re being nice, we’re only doing it for ourselves, in the hope that we will gain something in the long run. In Freudian terms: we’re putting off immediate instinctive gratification because we’re smart enough to know that we can get even more gratification if we submit our desires to the Reality Principle. Perhaps one could argue that being nice is just being mean in slow-motion. As for cruelty, meanness and the like, we’re mean because it is our nature. Just ask old Nietzsche: > [@](#): > > \*To observe suffering does us good; to cause suffering does us even better – this is a cold-hammered proposition, but also a very old and very human one – an all too human proposition, indeed, with which even our simian ancestors would have agreed… Without cruelty, no festivities – that is the message of mankind’s oldest history. And there is, after all, something so very **festive** in the exercise of punishment! > > …life was significantly happier here on Earth, in that time when man had not yet learned to feel shame over his cruelty, than it now is, with all of these pessimists about… > > – **The Geneology of Morals** , Friedrich Nietzsche\* I mean, after all, aren’t the laws of evolution based on the survival of the fittest? What does being nice have to do with that, when push comes to shove? As everyone knows well, nice guys always finish last. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2001, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589/54 "2001-08-07T14:30:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Zenster_ > My congratulations were sincere and my appreciation of the fact that you were one of the only people to take a significant stand on this issue was genuine. I am extremely curious as to why you have chosen to take offense at this. I misinterpreted your words. I retract my statement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mean-people-and-what-to-do-about-them/72589.md?page=2)