# Meaning of German symbol? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 31, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472 "2004-03-31T05:12:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/1 "2004-03-31T05:12:38Z")
I have a cigarette lighter which came from Germany during WWII. On one side is a picture of a building with three gables. The center gable has a steeple. That side of the lighter says “ROMER” with two dots over the “O.” It also says “FRANKFURT A/M.” But it is the symbol on the other side which most interests me. It is in the shape of a shield with five vertical stripes. The two outer stripes are red. Next to them are white stripes, and in the center is a dark blue stripe. In the center of the blue stripe is a sword or long dagger pointing upwards. The handle of the sword is near the point of the shield. Does anyone know what this symbol represents? Information on the building on the other side would also be of interest too. ---
**Author:** ![Thylacinewas\_taken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@Thylacinewas\_taken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacinewas_taken)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/2 "2004-03-31T06:01:47Z")
Frankfurt A/M would be Frankfurt am Main, where one of the worlds busiest airports is located. There are two Frankfurts in Germany, the other is Frankfurt am Oder. Main and Oder are the rivers that the Frankfurts are on. Romer(or Roemer to spell out the umlaut) is probably the company. Here’s a webcam of the Roemer City Hall, so possible Roemer was a town swallowed up by Frankfurt. [http://www.frankfurt.de/sis/frankfurtbilder/cams/pia/index.php](http://www.frankfurt.de/sis/frankfurtbilder/cams/pia/index.php) Even if it has nothing to do with your Roemer, it looks very nice there! ---
**Author:** ![KP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a9adbd/32.png) [@KP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KP)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/3 "2004-03-31T06:16:05Z")
It’s been a while since I’ve been there, but it sounds like the Römer (old city hall) in the symbolic center of the Altstadt (old city center) of Frankfurt am Main. Römer was a local collective term for what were once three independent houses of government, and the Römer buildiung was actually three separate building hence the three gables. Since Frankfurt literally meant “stronghold of the Franks,” there were more than one, e.g. Frankfurt am Oder is a city in what became East Germany after WWII. “Am Main” means “on the Main River” just as “am Oder” means “on the Oder River”. Frankfurt A/M is the city that most people simply call “Frankfurt” – one of the largest cities in western Europe, with a combined airport complex that was arguably the largest in the world [Its main civilian airport and the US Rhein/Main Air Force Base were each, independently, among the largest in the world at the end of the Cold War] For most of the past 1000 years, Frankfurt a/M has been one of the handful of independent “free cities” for commerce. In the Holy Roman Empire, it was an Imperial city, meaning that it was directly under the Empire, as a not under the King or the surrounding state (province). Other free cities, like Hamburg, remain their own states to this day Frankfurt is still one of the world’s major financial centers (e.g. HQ of the European Central bank, the German Bundesbank (federal bank) and the largest stock exchange in Germany, and as such is sometimes nicknamed “Bankfurt” or “Mainhattan” The two dots over the ‘o’ are called an umlaut, and represent a vowel sound that is often transliterated as a ‘e’ following the umlauted vowel. Therefore, you should be able to find many pictures and information on the building by Googling [Roemer “Frankfurt am Main”](http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Roemer+&num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=frankfurt+am+main&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off) (the preceding link lists only sites in English, since it appears you do not speak German.) I’m sorry , but the crest or emblem you describe isn’t ringing any bells with me. All the crests I’ve seen for Frankfurt have the traditional stylized Teutonic eagle on them. ---
**Author:** ![Kepi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kepi/32/7251_2.png) [@Kepi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/4 "2004-03-31T06:25:06Z")
It sounds like you probably have a souvenir lighter from Frankfurt am Main. The image of the building is of _The Römer_, part of the town hall and a landmark for the city. Here’s a [link for info on Frankfurt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_am_Main) that includes a photo of The Römer. I can’t find anything about the shield you describe, but I would guess that it is a coat of arms or some other symbol associated with the city. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/5 "2004-03-31T07:36:16Z")
This is probably wildly off base, but that emblem you’re describing sounds an awful lot like a unit patch my grandfather picked up in WWII - I sure don’t remember the designator, but it definitely was a shield, with stripes and a sword, hilt down, in the center. Now, i only remember the patch itself, it wasn’t attached to a uniform or anything - i always thought it was american, but maybe it was a german unit patch he picked up. he had quite a few souvenirs from the war - patches, bayonets, insignia of nazi officers etc. For some reason, i think that the hilt of the sword on his patch was gold, though. Could be absolutely nothing to connect them, but he was all over Belgium and Germany throughout the war and he had several items with that symbol on it. ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_Holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mycroft\_Holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_Holmes)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/6 "2004-03-31T08:29:22Z")
Well, as mentioned above, one side of the lighter shows the **Römer** in Frankfurt am Main. The shield sounds similiar to the emblem of the [US Army in Europe](http://www.hqusareur.army.mil/), also known as USAREUR. If you look at the top of the linked page, you can see that the emblem contains a sword. Maybe older versions of the emblem (I couldn’t find any online) had the red white and blue stripes you mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/7 "2004-03-31T13:05:14Z")
My grandfather served in WWII in Europe. The arms sound a great deal like the heraldry adopted by the US Army for the European theater. The lighter might have been made to sell to US occupying forces. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/8 "2004-03-31T15:17:46Z")
> [@KP](#): > > Since Frankfurt literally meant “stronghold of the Franks,” there were more than one, e.g. Frankfurt am Oder is a city in what became East Germany after WWII. “Am Main” means “on the Main River” just as “am Oder” means “on the Oder River”. It’s Frankfurt _an der_ Oder. It’s “der Main” (masculine) and “die Oder” (feminine). Thus, in the dative case it’s “am (= an dem) Main” and “an der Oder.” ---
**Author:** ![silkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@silkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silkie)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/9 "2004-03-31T17:07:33Z")
[QUOTE=KP] Frankfurt A/M is the city that most people simply call “Frankfurt” – one of the largest cities in western Europe, QUOTE] Nitpick Warning!! Framkfurt A/M has a population of c. 650,000 which actually makes it quite a small city Nitpick Over ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/10 "2004-03-31T17:11:38Z")
The towers are probably the city gate, which appears on the Frankfurt an der Oder [city arms](http://www.ngw.nl/int/dld/f/frankfuo.htm). I didn’t have any luck browsing for the other set of arms, though. Are all the stripes of equal width? ---
**Author:** ![mkl12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@mkl12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkl12)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/11 "2004-03-31T18:40:39Z")
> [@Podkayne](#): > > The towers are probably the city gate, which appears on the Frankfurt an der Oder No. It’s the Römer, the City Hall in Frankfurt am Main. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/12 "2004-03-31T20:30:07Z")
> [@mkl12](#): > > No. It’s the Römer, the City Hall in Frankfurt am Main. Oh, sorry. I was confused by the steeple part. ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/13 "2004-03-31T21:57:05Z")
The wartime version of the patch you’re thinking of, **Mycroft** , was SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters, Allied Expeditionary Force), and was worn by US, UK, Commonwealth and other Allied personnel in UK and NW Europe attached to staff duties. Here’s what it looked like: [http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/cossac/Cossac.htm](http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/cossac/Cossac.htm) It was later adopted for use by USAREUR. The stripey shield isn’t any British or Commonwealth formation sign that I’m familiar with (and I’ve collected them for 30 years); I’m a much less familiar with US insignia, however… From the sound of it, the shield with stripes and a sword could be a heraldic device, possibly a family crest (German), or maybe a German Principality in the area of Frankfurt a/M. The red, white & blue colour in the stripes is a bit suspicious, though–could it be a piece made post-May 1945 as souvenir for US occupation troops? Was Frankfurt in the US Zone? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/14 "2004-03-31T22:24:30Z")
FWIW, the _Roemerplatz_ is the tourist center of Frankfurt. My understanding that the names is a Germanic version of Roman, from back in the day when it was the northern outpost of the Roman empire. The _Dom_ (cathedral) there was the only thing left standing in the area after the bombings of WWII; allegedly it was left unscathed so that Allied bombers could find other targets by this landmark. The area surrounding _der Platz_ (the square) was rebuilt during the years following the war, and is some of the only old facade construction in the area. I’m fairly sure that the townhall there is no longer in use, although I could be wrong on that one. And although Frankurt a.M. is fairly small by European standards, it’s big in the sense of American cities. The boundaries for cities in Europe is distinct (vs. Metro area concept we use in the states). If you include the whole metro area it’s decent sized but not overly large, maybe a couple million people in the area from the edge of the Taunus mountains down to Darmstadt, west to near Mainz/Wiesbaden, and east for a bit as well. People in that whole range (and some farther) would commute into Frankfurt _Stadtmitte_ (city center) and the nearby area for work. ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_Holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mycroft\_Holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_Holmes)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/15 "2004-04-01T12:33:06Z")
> [@Rodd Hill](#): > > From the sound of it, the shield with stripes and a sword could be a heraldic device, possibly a family crest (German), or maybe a German Principality in the area of Frankfurt a/M. > > The red, white & blue colour in the stripes is a bit suspicious, though–could it be a piece made post-May 1945 as souvenir for US occupation troops? Was Frankfurt in the US Zone? Yep, Frankfurt was in the US zone, and there are still quite a few American soldiers stationed in the Rhein-Main area. Here is a list of some of the US bases near Frankfurt: [26th Area Support Group, Heidelberg](http://www.26thasg.heidelberg.army.mil/) [233rd Base Support Battalion, Darmstadt](http://www.233bsb.darmstadt.army.mil/) [293rd Base Support Battalion, Mannheim](http://home.mannheim.army.mil/) [411th Base Support Battalion, Heidelberg](http://www.heidelberg.army.mil/) [415th Base Support Battalion, Kaiserslautern](http://www.kaiserslautern.army.mil/) [98th Area Support Group, Würzburg](http://www.98asg.wuerzburg.army.mil/) [104th Area Support Group, Hanau](http://www.104thasg.hanau.army.mil/) [221st Base Support Battalion, Wiesbaden](http://www.wiesbaden.army.mil/) [222nd Base Support Battalion, Baumholder](http://www.baumholder.army.mil/) [284th Base Support Battalion, Giessen](http://www.giessen.army.mil/) [414th Base Support Battalion, Hanau](http://www.hanau.army.mil/HanauWeb/01_index/index.asp) In addition, the [US Army V Corps](http://www.vcorps.army.mil/www/default.htm) is headquartered in Heidelberg. Also, there is the huge [Rhein-Main air base](http://www.rheinmain.af.mil/) in Frankfurt, along with several smaller airbases in the general area like Ramstein, Sembach and Spangdahlem. In other words there are so many different Army and Air force units that are currently in Germany or have been here, it would take forever to find the one that fits the crest mentioned (I do think it must have been made for some unit stationed in Germany). However, the 98th ASG in Würzburg seems close, at least when it comes to the coloring. Also, if you look [here](http://www.ngw.nl/int/dld/f/frankfum.htm), you can see the crest for Frankfurt, and there are links to several other towns that have either been incorporated into modern Frankfurt or are near there, but there is nothing matching the description. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/16 "2004-04-02T06:09:09Z")
Thank you all for your replies. For now the symbol remains a mystery. The links to the City Hall are indeed the same building that is on the lighter. It’s good to know that it is standing. I know that my father-in-law was in Germany after the war ended because I have heard that he had pictures of various buildings both before and after they were bombed. It is he who brought the lighter back. Frankfurt sounds plenty big to a girl from Nashville. 😉 _picker_, was the patch that your grandfather had a German patch or from Allied forces? When I looked closely at this lighter, I could see that the hilt is a goldish color. **Mycroft Holmes** and **Rodd Hill** , it’s interesting that the Supreme Headquarters Insignia is so much like this one, but the stripes on mine are vertical and there are no flames around the sword. {b]Mycroft\*\*, thanks for the links. I will try to find out where my husband’s father was attached. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that this was made for U.S. soldiers. The bottom of the lighter says “Mylflam Pat.” ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/17 "2004-04-02T07:44:09Z")
Hi Zoe The patch my Grandfather had definitely was American, upon reflection. I’ve been poking around some sites on the net and haven’t been able to find it, though. [I’ve checked this site pretty thoroughly](http://www.vetshome.com) , you might want to poke around yourself. Scroll down a bit, and the left column below the POW graphic lists links to unit patches sorted by command, division and type of unit. During WWII he was in several units, starting in the 29th Infantry and after he was wounded at the Bulge he hopped around multiple support and transportation units until war’s end. I’m starting to wonder if it wasn’t actually an Air National Guard patch. After WWII he served as a mechanic for the North Carolina ANG for another 20 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-german-symbol/237472/18 "2004-04-07T06:18:40Z")
Thanks, **picker**. That’s a pretty comprehensive site! I will be interested in a closer look. When I see your name and “location,” I think immediately of my husband. One of his favorite things is sitting on the porch and playing the guitar. But then, we live in Nashville and this activity is required by law here.