Where are you again?
—If God has a higher purpose then we as mortals will never be able to understand what that purpose is.—
He’s welcome to tell us, anytime he pleases. Some say he already has, though they are of many minds as to what it is, exactly. Regardless, I’ll stick to trying to do what I can figure out is right, and living my meaningful life, and if there is a God, I’m sure he can take good care of himself in figuring out his issues.
—My other point was that if God does not exist, then we ultimately achieve very little in the short time we are here.—
Even an infinity of meaninglessness cannot add up to meaning. 0+0+0… on and on forever doesn’t solve the problem of meaning, nor does reference to the wishes of a creator being. Either your life is meaningful to you, or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then why do you care so much that it isn’t?
Posted by *** Apos***
There is a difference between; whether your life has meaning, and whether there is meaning to this life, this existence.
The former is relative the later absolute. The first looks for and possibly finds meaning in the day-to-day drama of every day life, the other considers the whole of life and asks if this existence was created or came into being for reasons that transcend it.
Can one find meaning in their lived life yet find none that answers the questions of why it exits at all?
Perhaps.
But if there is no transcendent meaning there can’t truly be any meaning…can there?
That’s why people care.
They don’t want their life to be useless and meaningless, but the fear is maybe it is.
—There is a difference between; whether your life has meaning, and whether there is meaning to this life, this existence.—
Well, what is the difference other than you forgetting to specify who’s meaning we’re talking about in the later case?
—The former is relative the later absolute.—
How is the former relative? Relative to what? My judgement of my own life’s meaning IS absolute. It cannot be refuted: it is tautalogical. It’s meaningful because that’s what I experience it to be. It may not be meaningful to you, but that’s YOU, a different subject altogether. It may nto be meaningful to a rock, but that’s rocks: a different subject altogether.
And how is the latter is “absolute” in the sense you seem to mean it (that is, independant of a particular subject)? “Confused” is more like how I see it. I mean, what could “absolute” even mean when we are talking about subjective value? If you mean “There is meaning to life” in the way I think you mean it, then you are expressing an incomplete thought. Meaning for WHOM? How can you speak of meaning without speaking of the particular being who is experiencing it? We can speak about the meaning of A to B. We can speak about the meaning of B to A. But we can’t speak simply about the meaning of A, independant of a SOMEONE who’se judgement we are talking about (even if it’s just A’s judgement).
—But if there is no transcendent meaning there can’t truly be any meaning…can there?—
There is meaning, FOR ME, end of story. Perhaps there is a creator being that also feels it’s existence is meaningful, or even that my existence is meaningful to it as well. If so, good for it: I’m sure that I would find it’s existence meaningful as well, the more the merrier, and perhaps we can pop into a nice pub and compare notes someday.
But I have no idea what you could mean by “transcendent meaning.” Transcending WHAT?
—That’s why people care. They don’t want their life to be useless and meaningless, but the fear is maybe it is.—
If they care, I don’t see how it can be useless and meaningless… because it obviously has enough meaning already that they’d care about it, in which case they’ve found their answer: they were just malforming or misunderstanding their own question. Even if they were created for a purpose, that doesn’t in and of itself make their existence meaningful TO THEM: it simply makes it meaningful to whomever had the purpose in the first place.
Iamthat, I must say that I had a problem for a long time coming to terms with non-transcendent meaning. Even still I struggle to understand how it could be that there is no transcendence… sometimes I waffle a bit and consider some symbol-systems to be transcendent (transcendence of math is not an uncommon notion), mind to be transcendent, certain universal qualities… transcendence creeps in every time we seek absolute assurance/knowledge.
You say,
Which of course itself leads us to ask questions of transcendence. But really: what life are you talking about that is not any one person’s life? Are you searching for something that is common to all life, and asking what the meaning of this is? But every time we ask for the meaning, we need a referent, we need someone that this means something to (as Apos et al has been saying).
No, many people do not strive to achieve those things. Many women and men have said before (try here) that they don’t want children. Some people don’t like money or enjoy the simple things in life. Many people go out of their way to be shock and offend society and would hate to be accepted by it. And there are even some people not looking for romance. So, if everyone does not have the same desires, your point falls through.
I had an epiphany today at work where it all became clear to me (at least as far as Christianity goes). Let’s rundown the facts, shall we? God, being all-powerful and all-knowing, creates a universe, stocks it with humans, places them in paradise, only to have the humans screw it up so bad, that he has to wipe out 99% of them and try it again. This works for a while, but eventually, things get so bad, that God sends His son down to try and explain things to the humans. In response, the humans decide to nail God jr. to a tree. So, God brings His son back to life and God jr. informs humanity that because they can’t seem to get their shit together God’s going to wipe 'em all out some day, and the good ones are going to get to hang with God, while the bad ones go hang out with Satan. Now, this all makes sense, until you stop and think about it: God’s all knowing, so He already knows before He does any of this, exactly what’s going to happen. Which raises the question: Why would He do all of if this, if He already knows what the outcome is going to be? Why go to the trouble of creating something so complicated and elaborate as the universe if all you’re going to do is blow it up just when things start to get interesting?
Obviously, the only reason why you’d do this, is if you enjoyed it. So, now that we know God enjoys doing these kinds of things, we have to ask ourselves: Who is God? Who is this individual who enjoys creating wildly complex things simply for the pleasure of blowing them up? The answer, of course, is obvious when you think about it. God is Beavis, and God jr is Butt-Head. No other explaination makes sense.
** Apos**
I am saying that in the later case if your life has meaning so does mine and everyone else’s for the similar/same reason(s), whether or not one knows it.
{If god and/or a transcendence exists it exists for all.}
If that is the case part of the reason of this existence may be to discover this meaning. The road of self discover is the search for meaning in one’s individual life, in terms of why it exists at all.
I agree, my life, my mind, and its meaning is absolute to me.
But I am making a distinction between;
this life of mine and the meaning I have of it, which is apart of this life of mine.
And
this life of mine and a transcendent meaning or reason that it exists in the first place.
If a transcendent meaning exists and I know it it would be part of my life, and it would be part of the meaning of my life.
If it existed and I did not know of its existence it would still be an aspect of my life but not apart of the meaning I give to it, and therefore may have effects of which the cause is unknown.
In one sense I agree when Spiritus says;
But it is also meaningless. How can life (singular) have its own meaning?
You say…
Yes, meaning is reflection, dualistic.
I can speak about the meaning of my life but I cannot speak about the meaning of the awareness of it or consciousness since I do not see it in reflection since I am it.
Well it is also a question of being; who or what is this I ,that gives, sees or creates meaning? And, as mentioned above, is it possible to give meaning to itself, if it (consciousness) cannot become an object of its own awareness?
I am saying if god or a transcendence exists then god or a transcendent reality(/) exists for all, and the meaning or reason why this manifestation exists applies to all., and in that sense it is absolute in relation to whatever is experienced as this life.
My life has meaning as well, but it might be a footnote to a much greater story. And if it isn’t then the meaning it has is groundless, has no foundation; The meaning itself has no meaning or reason for existing.
That’s what I have been calling relative meaning.
Death gives meaning and takes it away. Like all, I know I’m going to die and that gives meaning. But am I going to die, or is just this body going to die? If I don’t know who I am and mistake myself to be this body when I’m not, how does that confusion and lack of knowledge affect the meaning that I apply to this body, this life?
Meaning is nebulous as is it surrounded by mystery.
If you were created for a purpose and you knew it would it not give meaning above and beyond this life?
“What is the meaning of life?” is a meaningless question.
Should ask “What is the purpose of life?” or “What is the definition of life?”.
The purpose of living creatures is to perpetuate DNA through time. Animals, plants and bacteria are all ‘designed’ by natural selection to act as successful vehicles for DNA.
You can create above this more purpose to your own life.
Yes, the word around you is an illusion. You have constructed a model of this world in your head to assist you navigate this world.
** erislover**
How could there be no transcendence? How can this life have meaning in and of itself? I don’t know. I think there is a transcendent truth or reality(?)
Yes. But maybe I’m not saying it clearly.
Do you agree that this existence has meaning you are not aware of.
How can life be an “in and of itself”? This is the question that needs to be answered first. Perhaps that would lead the way to seeing what it means.
If I am not aware of it, what could possibly make me answer affirmatively?
why would anyone accept a purpose of life given to them by someone else. Even if God does exist, it doesn’t necessarily mean He has a plan for everyone. Perhaps He just put us here to see what would happen. God may not know everything. Do we have any proof that He does?
I think the world is a school for Godhood. We are here to train to become like God. In the meantime God is learning also and becoming greater, so we will never catch up with Him.
But we can learn to create our own planets and universes and train our own “children” to be like us.
On and on it goes, where it stops, no one knows.
Constant creation
I think you have to look within yourself for the real answers.
Love
Leroy
to me, the purpose of life (my life anyway) is to live a good, happy life, and die with no regrets.
Why is this a problem? When I die, if it turns out that my life hasn’t served any “higher purpose” and/or that it hasn’t had any “transcendent meaning” (or whatever brand of poison you prefer), why am I any worse off than I’d be if my life had served a “higher purpose”? Why should it concern me if it turns out that I’m not just a pawn (hell, or even a rook) in some cosmic chess game, or just a dart stuck in a cosmic dartboard, or whatever metaphor floats your boat?
** erislover**
If by life we mean the observation of ones entire perceptual field at any one moment; sensations, thoughts, feelings, memories, all the content plus the awareness of it.
And if we cannot grasp or hold onto any one moment life appears as this constant changing perceptual field, as in a film strip where each frame is a moment.
Can this constant changing appearance and the observation of it be “in and of itself,” or have meaning in and of itself that does not transcend ?
Past experiences, memories…
I suspect events are going to continue to happen, and things and thoughts are going to continue to arise. The meanings they will have I do not know but they to will come to be.
Did they have prior existence? Not for me.
If there is a future and it is unknown, then there is/will be meaning I am not aware of.
If everything is in a continuous change so is meaning.
*** loinburger***
It matters now though.
Doesn’t it?
Life’s a mystery, and as such I am a mystery to myself.
We don’t know what’s going on?
For me: I don’t think so. If it did it would be remarkably hard to quantify to the point we would need it to be in this context.
I agree with that, but I do not agree that this existence—the one I am living—has a meaning I am not aware of. It may, but I have no way to evaluate the proposition. Moot point, IMO.
I think this can be a matter of contention. I admit that I cannot think of an example of any sign or set of signs whose meaning is so utterly fixed and defined that we are done changing its meaning (intentionally or not), but I don’t know that one can rule it out.
Why would it matter now any more than it would matter after I’ve died? I’d think that it would matter even less now then after my corpsification, since my post-mortem “meaning” could only be transcendent (assuming that I’m not reincarnated as another temporally and/or spatially bound entity), whereas the meaning that I currently assign to my life needn’t have any relation to my life’s (possibly non-existent) transcendent meaning.
Look at it this way – I’ve just eaten a slice of pizza, and it was an enjoyable experience for me. Would the experience be any less enjoyable if there were no transcendent Pizza? If the answer to the question is “yes,” then why would this be the case, and/or why do you make this assertion? If the answer to the question is “no,” then why should I concern myself with the Cosmic Pizza if it apparently has no effect upon the pizza in my stomach?
The same goes for my life. Why would my life be any less meaningful to me if there were no transcendent Life-Meaning? If my life has the same meaning independent of the Cosmic Life-Meaning, then why should I concern myself with the Life-Meaning at all?
—I am saying that in the later case if your life has meaning so does mine and everyone else’s for the similar/same reason(s), whether or not one knows it.—
Eh? Are you saying that if there exists a dog for whom both of our lives are meaningful, then our lives are meaningful? In that case, I’d agree: they are meaningful… to the dog. The question of whether our lives are meaningful to ourselves or each other remains unanswered. The situation is basically the same for a creator god. We all play roles in the lives and experiences of others that may be meaningful to THEM, but that we might be unaware of.
—{If god and/or a transcendence exists it exists for all.}—
Meh? If a thinking God exists, then God ads just another judgement. But there is no reason why God’s judgement of meaning is any more obligatory than anyone else’s. I mean, why would that be: because he has a big gun? Because he owns the deed and intellectual property rights to our bodies? Because he’s around for a longer time?
—If that is the case part of the reason of this existence may be to discover this meaning.—
No, that might be something that SOME being finds meaningful. There is no reason why it would BE meaningful in the abscence of someone judging that end to be so.
—The road of self discover is the search for meaning in one’s individual life, in terms of why it exists at all.—
The search for meaning can be whatever a person happens to find meaningful.
—If a transcendent meaning exists and I know it it would be part of my life, and it would be part of the meaning of my life.—
You didn’t answer my question about transcendant WHAT? What is it transcending? As far as I can tell, what you are really saying is: maybe there is a being who created us for a purpose, finds my life meaningful, and if so, then that’s meaningful to me. Well, good for you. But that doesn’t have anything to do with what you seem to be claiming, which is that life “just has” some inherent meaning independant of any being judging it to be so.
—If it existed and I did not know of its existence it would still be an aspect of my life but not apart of the meaning I give to it, and therefore may have effects of which the cause is unknown.—
How can a fact have effects on the mind when the mind doesn’t know it?
—My life has meaning as well, but it might be a footnote to a much greater story.—
Only if you happen to want to incorporate the greater story into your sense of meaning.
—Do you agree that this existence has meaning you are not aware of.—
I can’t possibly be even potentially meaningful TO ME until I know about it. Only then can I consider whether it’s meaningful to me.
—And if it isn’t then the meaning it has is groundless, has no foundation; The meaning itself has no meaning or reason for existing.—
Nonsense. It’s not groundless: it’s real and undeniable by the very fact that I am a subject who can judge it. That my awareness might have been created by another being (Who either might find me meaningful or not) is interesting, but not necessarily the most meaningful thing in the world. It’s certainly not anymore TRANSCENDANT or whatever simply because it’s external to me: plenty of things are. If my parents had me so that I could grow up to be a lawyer, that doesn’t make the law a meaningful career to me.
—If you were created for a purpose and you knew it would it not give meaning above and beyond this life?—
Maybe, maybe not. But how would the meaning another being takes in my existence be necessarily any more important to me than the love of a friend? Or my judgement that what I can do before I die will have repercussions that last after I’m dead, repercussions that are meaningful to me.