# Meaning of "was to certain poor shepherds" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873 "2009-12-19T18:04:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/21 "2009-12-20T12:59:03Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Does anything in the story of Jesus’ birth indicate he was even born during the winter? No. Most of the evidence in the story, for example, shepherds out in the fields with their flock, instead of indoors, points to late summer. There was a definite decision in the early church to move the celebration of Christ’s birth to the Winter solstice, it’s just a better time – everyone was ready to party, and not work, because of day length and it allows pagans to transfer their traditions and rituals from their faith to the new one. It’s not something early Christian leaders were embarrassed or ashamed about, just a good idea at the time. > **[Christmas | History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#History)** > > In the 2nd century, the "earliest church records" indicate that "Christians were remembering and celebrating the birth of the Lord", an "observance \[that\] sprang up organically from the authentic devotion of ordinary believers"; although "they did not agree upon a set date". Though Christmas did not appear on the lists of festivals given by the early Christian writers Irenaeus and Tertullian, the early Church Fathers John Chrysostom, Augustine of Hippo, and Jerome attested to December 25 a The ea... Oops, looks like wikipedia doesn’t confirm what I said, and points to the info coming out of the 18th century research. Hmmm. Sorry I don’t have a specific citation. But still: Jesus, born in Winter, no. ---
**Author:** ![RachelChristine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RachelChristine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RachelChristine)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/22 "2009-12-20T14:00:34Z")
2nd verse of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen: From God our Heavenly Father a blessed Angel came, And unto certain shepherds brought tidings of the same. There are the certain shepherds again! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/23 "2009-12-20T14:29:41Z")
Well, the Shepherds played the Scriptural role of the first witnesses to Jesus – “A whole chorus of angels? Announcing the Messiah? And a star moving around like Tinkerbell? Are you shepherds _sure_ you didn’t get drunk and make this stuff up?” “Oh, no, sir, we’re _certain!!_” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/24 "2009-12-20T15:05:09Z")
“Certain shepards” doesn’t appear in the gospels, but [‘certain’ is used exclusively as an adjective](http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=certain+&searchtype=phrase&version1=31&bookset=4). ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/25 "2009-12-20T16:19:19Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > No. Most of the evidence in the story, for example, shepherds out in the fields with their flock, instead of indoors, points to late summer. I’m probably dead wrong, but I thought that business of shepherds watching their flocks by night implied springtime, when lambs were being born and the flocks needed to be kept an eye on more. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/26 "2009-12-20T17:48:58Z")
Southern joke: Q: How do we know the Three Wise Men were volunteer firefighters? A: 'Cause the Good Book says “they came from afar”! ---
**Author:** ![Xotan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/278dde/32.png) [@Xotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xotan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/27 "2009-12-20T18:09:18Z")
‘Certain’ is used adjectivally. It’s use, although it may initially look archaic, is pretty much the same as in the modern phrase ‘a certain person said to me’. In other words, its intention is to definine a group (of shepherds), but in a very imprecise way. It has nothing whatsoever about the shepherds being sure or unsure. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/28 "2009-12-20T19:05:31Z")
Next verse: Then entered in those Wise Men three, Fell reverently upon their knee, And offered there in his presence, Their gold and myrrh and frankincense. This means: The Wise Men went to where Jesus was, got down on their knees, and gave him gold and incense. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/29 "2009-12-20T19:17:06Z")
> [@Xotan](#): > > ‘Certain’ is used adjectivally. It’s use, although it may initially look archaic, is pretty much the same as in the modern phrase ‘a certain person said to me’. In other words, its intention is to definine a group (of shepherds), but in a very imprecise way. > > It has nothing whatsoever about the shepherds being sure or unsure. My first post in the thread agreed with this; the one with the apocryphal quotes was an attempt at a joke. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/30 "2009-12-20T19:24:01Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Yeah, I agree. But those Christmas carols can be confusing, syntactically and otherwise. > > When I was a kid, I used to wonder what “Orient Are” was. > > And why the beggar didn’t just help himself to all the food at the feast that “Good King Wenceslaus” was looking at. We three kings of orient are… bearing gifts. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/31 "2009-12-20T19:29:37Z")
BTW, a quasi-factual post relative to the Nativity Story – the traditional image of shepherds, wise men, ox, ass, angels, Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all gathered around the manger is likely totally invalid. Luke, after relating Mary’s story, tells the traditional birth-in-the-stable story, as far as the shepherds hearing the first Noel, going and worshipping the baby; Matthew focuses on Joseph’s motivations, and is the one with the Wise Men, who went to the house where they were staying – followed by the Flight into Egypt and Herod’s Massacre of the Innocents. Presumably the Wise Men came later, after Joseph found lodging besides the stable – which is the reason for the 12 Days of Christmas, 12th Night being the eve of the Feast of the Epiphany, when Jesus is shown to the Wise Men bearing their gifts, they being Gentiles unlike the Shepherds. (The Jew/Gentile issue underlies the New Testament narrative and letters to a lot greater extent than we tend to notice at first glance.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/32 "2009-12-20T19:32:02Z")
Actually, if rendered into non-inverted English, it would be: We three kings are of (from) the Orient. We travel afar bearing gifts – [passing by) field and fountain, moor (not Moor which would be anachronistic) and mountain, following that there star. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/33 "2009-12-20T20:38:33Z")
Last verse: Then let us all with one accord Sing praises to our heavenly Lord That hath made heaven and earth of nought, And with his blood mankind hath bought. This means: Let’s all sing praises together to God who made the whole universe out of nothing and has saved mankind by the sacrifice of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/34 "2009-12-20T21:16:58Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > We Three Kings of Orien Tar > One in a taxi, one in a car > One on a scooter, beeping his hooter > Following Ringo Starr Before the Beatles took the popular music scene by storm, this version of the carol used to end with ‘Smoking a big cigar’ rather than ‘Following Ringo Starr’. We must be glad that Ringo came along because ‘Smoking a big cigar’ really takes liberties with history, there being no evidence whatsoever that any of the Three Kings ever smoked a cigar in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/35 "2009-12-20T21:45:30Z")
Since this has become mainly about the song rather than a question of grammar, perhaps it’s time to move this to CS. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/36 "2009-12-20T21:49:20Z")
> [@Chez\_Guevara](#): > > Before the Beatles took the popular music scene by storm, this version of the carol used to end with ‘Smoking a big cigar’ rather than ‘Following Ringo Starr’. > > We must be glad that Ringo came along because ‘Smoking a big cigar’ really takes liberties with history, there being no evidence whatsoever that any of the Three Kings ever smoked a cigar in their lives. In grade school (long before there was a Ringo Starr), we sang: _We three kings of Orient are, Trying to smoke a Raleigh cigar, It was loaded, It exploded, BOOM!_ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/37 "2009-12-20T22:05:25Z")
We would sing, _…It was loaded, It exploded, BOOM!_ Then, after a brief pause, resume: _We two kings of Orient are…_ ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/38 "2009-12-20T22:20:54Z")
Is there any month of the year when Israeli shepherds would _not_ be in the fields with their sheep? Pretty much a year-round activity in the moderate climates. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/39 "2009-12-21T18:24:08Z")
Good King Wenceslas looked out On the Feast of Stephen Snowballs hit him on the snout Made it all uneven Brightly shone his nose that night Though the pain was cruel When a doctor came in sight Riding on a mu-u-el ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873/40 "2009-12-21T18:43:55Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The Wise Men went to where Jesus was, got down on their knees, and gave him gold and incense. “Thanks for the gold and incense! Uh, don’t worry so much about the myrrh next time.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meaning-of-was-to-certain-poor-shepherds/521873.md?page=3)