# meat vs vegan efficiency
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [February 21, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073 "2011-02-21T01:33:27Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/41 "2011-02-23T19:36:02Z")
> [@Sailboat](#):
>
> …
> If you followed my link, you’d see that the steers on feedlots are killed after 15 months, not 3 years. And for 3-6 of those months, their diet is 70-90% corn. Taking the mean of those figures, for 4.5 months they’re fed 80% corn. 4.5/15 months of life = 30% of their lifespan. .30 lifespan \* 80% corn = 24% of their total lifetime diet is corn. More on some feedlots.
>
> That’s from a PBS investigation; **Blake** knows differently:
I live in upstate NY, dairy country. All the male cattle not used for breeding become beef. We feed them “field corn”, which they eat stalks, cobs, and all, as winter silage. Plus they get everything leftover from the inedible parts the “sweet corn” (i.e human food) growers can’t sell. AKA stalks and cobs. Every bit of that counts as “corn”, even though the “grain” part of it is only a small percentage of the total. Your cite is counting human-inedible parts as though it was all the human-edible parts. It’s not. It’s mostly waste that humans couldn’t live on if they tried. Yet you count it as “grain”. :rolleyes:
Yes, **Blake** knows differently. So does anyone else involved in farming.
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### Author:  [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/42 "2011-02-24T05:26:05Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#):
>
> I live in upstate NY, dairy country. All the male cattle not used for breeding become beef. We feed them “field corn”, which they eat stalks, cobs, and all, as winter silage. Plus they get everything leftover from the inedible parts the “sweet corn” (i.e human food) growers can’t sell. AKA stalks and cobs. Every bit of that counts as “corn”, even though the “grain” part of it is only a small percentage of the total. Your cite is counting human-inedible parts as though it was all the human-edible parts. It’s not. It’s mostly waste that humans couldn’t live on if they tried. Yet you count it as “grain”. :rolleyes:
>
> Yes, **Blake** knows differently. So does anyone else involved in farming.
Is there a cite that isn’t guy-on-message-board that says that for modern day cattle farming in the US (for dairy, meat, or both in the aggregate), the food inputs into the system consist of \< 1% corn kernels and soy like **Blake** claimed, and that you seem to be agreeing with?
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### Author:  [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/43 "2011-02-24T13:03:35Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#):
>
> Is there a cite that isn’t guy-on-message-board that says that for modern day cattle farming in the US (for dairy, meat, or both in the aggregate), the food inputs into the system consist of \< 1% corn kernels and soy like **Blake** claimed, and that you seem to be agreeing with?
While we’re at it, maybe someone can provide a cite supporting Constanze’s initial claim that dairy cattle “aren’t let outside to graze the pasture and munch grass”. I’ve been waiting for someone to provide one because I sure can’t locate one.
(Feeding beef cattle grain raises the fat content of their beef and makes them more valuable in the market. As far as I know it doesn’t do squat for milk - the butterfat of their milk is a function of the breed of the cow. A Holstein’s milk is so low butterfat it’s almost blue. A Guernsey, on the other hand - mmmm.)
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### Author:  [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/44 "2011-02-24T13:13:17Z")
Actually, to be fair to all sides there’s been a distressing lack of cites in this thread in general.
I had one detailing the various definitions of the terms cow, bull, steer, heifer, etc. (and they all describe different categories of cattle), but I’m assuming at this point that nobody’s interested. It’s really kind of boring anyway. 🙂
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### Author:  [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/45 "2011-02-24T15:46:01Z")
> [@sevenwood](#):
>
> While we’re at it, maybe someone can provide a cite supporting Constanze’s initial claim that dairy cattle “aren’t let outside to graze the pasture and munch grass”. I’ve been waiting for someone to provide one because I sure can’t locate one.
I only have german quotes which don’t count here.
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### Author:  [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/46 "2011-02-24T15:50:30Z")
> [@sevenwood](#):
>
> (Feeding beef cattle grain raises the fat content of their beef and makes them more valuable in the market. As far as I know it doesn’t do squat for milk - the butterfat of their milk is a function of the breed of the cow. A Holstein’s milk is so low butterfat it’s almost blue. A Guernsey, on the other hand - mmmm.)
Like I said, feeding milk cows high-enery food instead of letting them graze only is a result of breeding “turbo” cows with a high output of milk. A “turbo” cow produces around 30 l (= almost 8 gallon) per day. A non-high bred cow grazing in the Alp mountains will produce about 4-8 liters (1-2 gallons) per day. The energy for that must come from somewhere, and grass takes a long time to digest and doesn’t give as much energy as soy and other food.
The fat content of the milk is not considered by the farmers.
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### Author:  [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/47 "2011-02-24T16:13:01Z")
> [@constanze](#):
>
> The fat content of the milk is not considered by the farmers.
Son, I’m going to guess that you’ve never been a farmer. I grew up on a small dairy farm (\*) and my father was paid by the dairy based on both the volume and the fat content of the milk he sent them.
That’s why we always kept at least one Guernsey on the farm - the high fat content of its milk raised the fat content of the Holsteins’ milk to the point that the dairy paid him more per gallon.
(\*) I left that life just as soon as I could. IMNSHO anyone who entertains romantic notions about being a farmer has never worked a farm.
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### Author:  [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/48 "2011-02-24T16:36:12Z")
> [@sevenwood](#):
>
> Son, I’m going to guess that you’ve never been a farmer. I grew up on a small dairy farm (\*) and my father was paid by the dairy based on both the volume and the fat content of the milk he sent them.
Dude, don’t call me “Son” 🙂 \*. And I did work for one year on an organic farm with five milk cows. Presumably the way the dairy calculates the milk price is another one of the differences between the US and Germany. (Do you have state-sponsored milk prices, with the resulting butter mountains and milk lakes, or are the subsidies for farmers calculated differently?)
- I’m female.
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### Author:  [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/49 "2011-02-24T16:42:23Z")
> [@sevenwood](#):
>
> I grew up on a small dairy farm (\*) and my father was paid by the dairy based on both the volume and the fat content of the milk he sent them.
It’s been along time since I was growing up, and I started getting worried that maybe that observation was out of date, so I spent a few minutes with Google to see if things had changed.
Apparently they haven’t. Here’s a [report by the Maine Milk Commission](http://www.maine.gov/agriculture/mmc/priest.htm) which contains (about halfway down) a description of how a dairy pays a producer (That’s the farmer, not the cow 😃 ) for milk. Apparently the farmer is paid both my butterfat content, by Protein content, and by “other solids” content. No, I don’t want to particularly think about that last one. 😃
The article mentions that this process follows the “Rules of the Federal Order”, so this process is apparently US-wide. Germany, of course, is under no obligation to do the same.
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### Author:  [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/50 "2011-02-24T16:43:58Z")
> [@constanze](#):
>
> Dude, don’t call me “Son” 🙂 … I’m female.
My mistake. Sorry about that.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/51 "2011-02-24T16:52:38Z")
> [@sevenwood](#):
>
> Apparently they haven’t. Here’s a [report by the Maine Milk Commission](http://www.maine.gov/agriculture/mmc/priest.htm) which contains (about halfway down) a description of how a dairy pays a producer (That’s the farmer, not the cow 😃 ) for milk. Apparently the farmer is paid both my butterfat content, by Protein content, and by “other solids” content. No, I don’t want to particularly think about that last one. 😃
It’s not clear whether you’re kidding or not, but just so those reading this thread don’t get squicked out, “other solids” means the milk sugar lactose plus minerals. All good stuff that you want in your milk.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/52 "2011-02-24T17:19:20Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#):
>
> Is there a cite that isn’t guy-on-message-board that says that for modern day cattle farming in the US (for dairy, meat, or both in the aggregate), the food inputs into the system consist of \< 1% corn kernels and soy like **Blake** claimed, and that you seem to be agreeing with?
Certainly. Simon Fairly’s "_Meat a Benign Extravagance"._ However, more or less internet cites are more or less worthless, as Fairly spends most of his book debunking the widespread made-up (or based upon extreme cases) figures that are common on the internet.
If you read the book, all will be made clear.
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### Author:  [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/53 "2011-02-24T17:40:56Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#):
>
> It’s not clear whether you’re kidding or not
Yeah, I confess that I sort of was. Basically, they’re just using a formula that prevents you from gaining any market value by watering down your milk.
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### Author:  [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/54 "2011-02-25T05:54:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Certainly. Simon Fairly’s "_Meat a Benign Extravagance"._ However, more or less internet cites are more or less worthless, as Fairly spends most of his book debunking the widespread made-up (or based upon extreme cases) figures that are common on the internet.
>
> If you read the book, all will be made clear.
Citing an entire book is kind of useless. Can you quote the relevant passages, point me at _his_ cites, or tell me what text to search for?
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/55 "2011-02-25T06:10:56Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#):
>
> Citing an entire book is kind of useless. Can you quote the relevant passages, point me at _his_ cites, or tell me what text to search for?
No, it’s the book in it’s entirely, it’s the entire theme of the book. You will have to read it.
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### Author:  [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meat-vs-vegan-efficiency/572073/56 "2011-02-25T07:12:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> No, it’s the book in it’s entirely, it’s the entire theme of the book. You will have to read it.
Thanks. I’ll file this one away as ‘no cite given.’
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