# Mechanics, Therapists, Jesus, Buddha, SpongeBob: help me not buy a new car **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 23, 2016, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435 "2016-12-23T09:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435/21 "2016-12-28T13:10:05Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Shit. I had a long reply and it got eaten. Lemme see if I can recreate the magic. > > I had several points here, most of which I forget. I do recall that I said that I wouldn’t consider a bike without ABS now, and that these days, I’d hesitate to give up the three-axis traction management either. The old bikes are great to learn on in some ways, but if I turn all the nannies on and switch my bike to the ‘soft’ throttle map, even with 160hp and a 10.5s quarter mile time, it’s easier to ride than my first bike, a mid-70s CB500, ever was. Compared to modern technology, the old bike had bad braking, bad handling and bad suspension with a variety of mechanical woes to boot. > > With your performance background, I’m not worried about you whiskey-throttling into a concrete wall, I think what you need is time to sharpen up the mental game. And I think that’s easier on a modern bike with flawless manners no matter what the power charts say. The only thing that’s harder about riding my current bike is knowing how to manage the weight, and even that’s not the big deal you might think. Those older bikes like my CB500, I think they were made of lead. Hmm, the only thing that would keep me from getting an ABS bike is that it’s probably going to cost me twice as much. In the end, that’d be about $1500 for a much better behaved, safer bike. One with traction management would be even more money, even more safe\*. We’ll see how that argument will fly with the wife. As far as power, hmm. I dunno. I’ll take the MSF course and see how it feels before I go shopping. I haven’t been on a bike since before they started putting fairings on street bikes, and most of those would top out before 50mph. Plus, the bike’s high power setting would probably start calling my name. > [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > It was a cumulative thing, compounded with some slippery slope type thinking. At five years, the suspension needed refreshing. If you’re gonna tear it apart and spend the cash, why not go fully adjustable? Why not replace all the bushings and ball joints with higher performance items? Why not fix some of the weird factory oversights, like the rear control arm mount weakness that leads to sudden undesired 4 wheel steering? Let’s not even talk about the third steering rack already starting to go south… > > So think about all the maintenance a car used in motorsports might need, and then think about all the incremental upgrades that you “might as well do” when you are in the thick of it. Adds up. Oh yes, if I weren’t fixated on getting my DD back on the road, I could rack up 20k on an engine rebuild alone very quickly. > [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Also, the bodywork had taken a few blows over the years. That fiberglass was incredibly thin and expensive to repair. It wasn’t a critical fix, but it bothered me. > > Last but definitely not least, some of the faster guys were finding damage caused by oil starvation in long left-handers. We already knew that fuel starvation could take the motor out in a single lap, but had our strategies to deal with that. The potential for big top end damage was the last straw. > > I could have kept the car and put it away until enthusiasm returned, but I only had so much garage space and too many toys. Ahh, the BP four had cooling problems when it was mounted longitudinally in the Miata/MX-5 and taken racing. I can see that sort of problem, combined with everything in the car being made as light as possible would make an unappealing long-term owner. \*I’ve had a car sideways on two wheels because of sand. Sand is everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435/22 "2016-12-28T16:24:11Z")
Roadway sand and high performance motorcycles are a \*very \*poor mix. The voice of experience here. Ouch! ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435/23 "2016-12-29T04:48:34Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Ahh, the BP four had cooling problems when it was mounted longitudinally in the Miata/MX-5 and taken racing. I can see that sort of problem, combined with everything in the car being made as light as possible would make an unappealing long-term owner. Ultimately, the problem was that I used the car for something it wasn’t meant to be. It would have been a great track-only car, with the requisite time between outings used for maintenance and safety stuff. It would have been a great fair weather ride, tearing up the twisted but otherwise living a relatively low impact life. But no, I used it for both of those things PLUS a daily commuter. That’s a a tough life for any car, much less a fragile British roadster. I knew guys that made that work, but they either had more free time or were disposed to drop the car off with their local maintenance guy for a regular freshening. And I didn’t have the budget for that, not that I was not fortunate otherwise. > [@](#): > > \*I’ve had a car sideways on two wheels because of sand. Sand is everywhere. I’ve had a VFR sideways on no wheels once when I decided to throttle my way out of a patch of mud-slick pavement. Does that count? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435/24 "2016-12-29T16:22:15Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > I’ve had a VFR sideways on no wheels once when I decided to throttle my way out of a patch of mud-slick pavement. Does that count? It certainly counts as crazy time! Did you ace the landing? If not, could you pick the bike up purely by the grip your glutes had on the seat? ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435/25 "2016-12-29T17:12:36Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > It certainly counts as crazy time! Did you ace the landing? If not, could you pick the bike up purely by the grip your glutes had on the seat? I certainly got high marks for the dismount. And that was a day I was glad for the hip and elbow armor in my suit. It happened so fast, I didn’t even have time to pucker. One moment, I was glad to be done with work for the day, and the next, I was sliding on my butt in a slo-mo recreation of one of those [big MotoGP-style lowsides](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLV5mkGH9E). ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435/26 "2016-12-30T10:02:19Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I’m not a fan of the “junk it when the repair cost is more than the value of the car.” > > For more old Mazda 323, I once ended up paying nearly it’s value in one year for two repairs. > > Drove it for over 15 years after that without any other big ($) problems. > > The main thing is knowing what is going on with all the major systems of the car. Are most of these okay? Are several of them on death’s door? That is what you base your decision to repair or junk on. > > When it comes to economics and cars, the “drive it till the wheels come off” philosophy rules. It’s only when you step out of the realm of pure cost does anything else matter. And almost all of those are psychological. Don’t let your id rule your wallet. Yep, I own a car to drive it, not to sell it. As long as it would be more money to get a car I’d like to drive as much and could rely on to the same degree, replacing parts is the way to go. It’s hard to find a used vehicle that you can actually trust. I may race my vehicles, but I also maintain them. Not everyone does. So unless it gets wrecked or I am disillusioned with the car, I try to keep them. I got the diagnosis and quote back today, I spun a bearing and bent a connecting rod. The bill will be about half the value of the car. Since it would cost twice as much to replace it with a similar car with a history that may be worse than mine and probably added financing costs to boot, this an easy decision. My wife took the call, and she told them to go ahead and fix it there. So, I’m actually having the dealership perform the work. They came in $2K below the performance shop. The performance shop quoted me a rebuilt short block that was more than I needed by far, and double the price of a new factory non-rebuilt part. So, if I had bargained them down on parts, they were still a few hundred apart. The dealership is also throwing in a loaner vehicle in on it (with a bill like that and a lot full of cars, they’d better), so that puts them several hundred cheaper than the independent shop, even if I had talked the independent down on parts. My wife knew all I knew about the problem form talking to me, and she chose well, I think. Plus, she knows Subaru will only install Subaru parts. So, unless I decide to have a bunch of STI stuff stuck on, there won’t be any price creep. I love her, but she’s my strategic equal. You have to get up pretty early in the morning to pass one over on her. Either way, I could trash an engine every other year and still easily come out ahead of buying new WRXs when I had the old one paid off. I’m not gonna _try_ to do that, mind you, but the finances work out that way. The savings will take a sharp short-term hit in the giblets when things happen, but there’s no long term payments to keep up with. Breathe, relax; save if you can, maintain good credit if you can’t. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Roadway sand and high performance motorcycles are a \*very \*poor mix. The voice of experience here. Ouch! Yes, situations like that are what make a decent set of armored gear and a full face helmet a necessity before I get a bike, and traction control very attractive. I can explore the limits of traction with relative safety in a car – I was able to get the aforementioned acrobatic car back on four wheels without incident despite doing the above while sliding at something like 60mph. It was the car equivalent of almost high siding in a car, but recovering\*. Losing traction on a bike is often a trip off the bike, even at low speeds. > [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > I certainly got high marks for the dismount. And that was a day I was glad for the hip and elbow armor in my suit. It happened so fast, I didn’t even have time to pucker. One moment, I was glad to be done with work for the day, and the next, I was sliding on my butt in a slo-mo recreation of one of those [big MotoGP-style lowsides](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLV5mkGH9E). Owwwwwwww. Ok, I have to ask: would the current traction control keep you from sliding out in that situation? I wouldn’t expect it to, but if you have info that it would work in extreme situations like that, the increase in cost would seem like a pittance. \*My friend, in the car I was racing against said, “I saw the bottom of your car, and I thought you were dead.” I was a kid, and my dad never knew that his '82 Escort had done anything of that nature until I told him more than 20 years later. I have no advice on how to reliably reproduce this stunt, I would estimate that no-one could do it. It’s easy to spin a car on four wheels (done it millions of times), and it’s easy to roll a car (umm, yes, have done that too). In that moment, I ended up in the absolutely terrifying sweet spot between them, and stayed there for a hundred feet or so before things got under control. I realized that day that I was one of the luckiest motherfuckers on the planet, but there’s no reason to push it. I have driven with more caution since then – more Jackie Stewart than Jim Clarke. (damn, that’s getting long for a footnote, I’ll stop) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435/27 "2016-12-30T12:58:18Z")
My view of traction control on a bike is it helps prevent tire slippage under over-aggressive throttle or (with ABS) brake use. That’s it. It won’t (actually can’t) do squat if you encounter a sudden change in road surface and the physics says traction required to hold the line \> traction available. To be sure it can quickly back off throttle or (with ABS) brake or both to leave 100% of the available traction useable for turning force. At the expense of a sudden sharp fore/aft weight shift and probably a wider line through the curve. Whether you have room for that wider line or not. To a first approximation traction quality goes down as you get closer to the edge of a lane or worse yet, the whole roadway. IOW, taking a wider line is often an exponentially deteriorating situation. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435/28 "2016-12-30T18:12:27Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Ok, I have to ask: would the current traction control keep you from sliding out in that situation? I wouldn’t expect it to, but if you have info that it would work in extreme situations like that, the increase in cost would seem like a pittance. It will help, but it’s not magic. The IMU knows about things like lean angle, throttle position, acceleration/deceleration and certain tire slip parameters that help it gauge available traction. So in the case of my Multi, you can find write-ups where they [turned the journalists loose on a wetted tile surface](http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/testing-boschs-motorcycle-stability-control), and no amount of brake grabbing or throttle twisting would break the bike loose or cause it to go down. But it can’t rescue a situation where the traction goes away NOT because of control inputs. If you’re cooking along at a good clip on clean, dry pavement and then suddenly cross over onto that wet tile, there’s nothing that the IMU can do with the controls it has available. Most particularly, there’s not a lot that can be done with the front wheel. The electronics can keep you from over braking that wheel, and wheelie control is entertaining in its own right, but if you just flat out lose the front, [unless you’re](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfH4TmGxrYk) [Marc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dSEnMp5Lqs) [Marquez](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10c9Dylnd9k), you’re getting off. And that’s where the [airbag](http://www.alpinestars.com/tech-air) [suits](http://www.dainese.com/us_en/d-air/street/) come in. Not that I have one of those. Yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mechanics-therapists-jesus-buddha-spongebob-help-me-not-buy-a-new-car/775435.md?page=1)