# Med school students routinely perform vaginal exams on unconscious, unconsenting patients. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 26, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096 "2019-06-26T14:26:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/21 "2019-06-26T21:33:19Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I knew someone who was doing that in the late nineties. He got $20 per exam, as one of a group of “models” (you want the class to experience variance), plus the group got pizza. It was always a one-day gig. > > He seemed pleased with the fact that he had some part that was hard to find. He had to talk most of the students through finding it. I guess this kept him on the list of people who were always called. As I recall, we had a pretty nice group of “models”. I remember one guy who had a scrotal varicocele and made sure we all knew how to identify that. On the other hand, there was this one guy who, when a nervous young female med student unthinkingly went on her knees to examine him, said, “I don’t think this is the time or place for that.” I’m pretty sure he was not invited to participate again… On the other other hand, the lady who coached me through my first pelvic exam was very nice and complimented me several times afterward on my technique. 🆒 We got to chatting for a bit after the class and when she found out that my apartment was across the street from her art studio, she told me I should come by sometime. Which I completely and utterly failed to do. Yes, I’m an idiot. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/22 "2019-06-26T22:24:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m not condoning this; medical schools should find consenting patients or hire people for medical students to practice examinations on. But we should not equate a medical professional giving a vaginal exam with a sex crime. When it’s done on a person who hasn’t consented for the medical student’s benefit and not the benefit of the patient, it is a sex crime as far as I’m concerned. I wonder if you’d be so sanguine about it if med students were doing prostate exams on you for kicks while you were unconscious. In general, I’d say that if you have to get someone unconscious to feel their genitals, it’s a sex crime. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/23 "2019-06-26T23:06:49Z")
What if the woman had some sort of serious vaginal issue that she was too embarrassed to put on her medical form, feeling safe in doing so because - why the fuck would a surgeon stick their fingers in her vagina for stomach surgery? I don’t consider myself an evangelist for the #metoo movement, but I find this unconscionable and outrageous. They ask for your consent for a resident to perform a procedure /examine you while you’re awake. Fuck they even asked for consent from my mother to use her surgically removed cancer cells for research. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/24 "2019-06-26T23:18:03Z")
> [@Helmut\_Doork](#): > > What is the protocol if you find something medically wrong with the person during an illegal unauthorized exam? That’s what I’m wondering. If they find an abnormal growth down there, do they inform the patient? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/25 "2019-06-26T23:42:54Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > When it’s done on a person who hasn’t consented for the medical student’s benefit and not the benefit of the patient, it is a sex crime as far as I’m concerned. I wonder if you’d be so sanguine about it if med students were doing prostate exams on you for kicks while you were unconscious. In general, I’d say that if you have to get someone unconscious to feel their genitals, it’s a sex crime. Is there any evidence that medical students were doing this “for kicks”? I’m going to assume these medical students were doing this to practice doing examinations. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/26 "2019-06-26T23:44:17Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The key is “without consent.” Sex crimes are not about sex, they are about power. Sex crimes are about power, yes, but _of course_ they are also about sex. They are a combination of both. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/27 "2019-06-26T23:50:16Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > When it’s done on a person who hasn’t consented for the medical student’s benefit and not the benefit of the patient, it is a sex crime as far as I’m concerned. I wonder if you’d be so sanguine about it if med students were doing prostate exams on you for kicks while you were unconscious. In general, I’d say that if you have to get someone unconscious to feel their genitals, it’s a sex crime. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The key is “without consent.” Sex crimes are not about sex, they are about power. This is an expression of power of doctors over patients, and as such it is exactly on a par with sex crimes. What the fuck is wrong with you people? These people may be playing a little fast and loose with informed consent but they aren’t doing it for shits and giggles or a power display. They are being told to do it by their instructors. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/28 "2019-06-27T00:10:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What the fuck is wrong with you people? These people may be playing a little fast and loose with informed consent but they aren’t doing it for shits and giggles or a power display. They are being told to do it by their instructors. I think it’s a symptom of the little value our society places on women’s consent and bodily autonomy. This should be unthinkable, but somehow it was considered acceptable for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/29 "2019-06-27T00:17:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it’s a symptom of the little value our society places on women’s consent and bodily autonomy. This should be unthinkable, but somehow it was considered acceptable for a long time. Possibly, if we assume that no men are getting their junk checked out in a similar way. I’m no MRA guy but it would not shock me if that’s the case and no one gives a crap. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/30 "2019-06-27T00:58:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What the fuck is wrong with you people? These people may be playing a little fast and loose with informed consent but they aren’t doing it for shits and giggles or a power display. They are being told to do it by their instructors. So, they are just following orders? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/31 "2019-06-27T01:05:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What the fuck is wrong with you people? These people may be playing a little fast and loose with informed consent but they aren’t doing it for shits and giggles or a power display. They are being told to do it by their instructors. And they should refuse. Not even a close question. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/32 "2019-06-27T01:18:02Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > And they should refuse. Not even a close question. If a med student is told that as a teaching hospital all the patients have signed a consent form that allows students to practice rudimentary physical exams then it might be a close question. I haven’t examined the consent of any of the institutions involved. Do you know the wording? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/33 "2019-06-27T01:23:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If a med student is told that as a teaching hospital all the patients have signed a consent form that allows students to practice rudimentary physical exams then it might be a close question. I haven’t examined the consent of any of the institutions involved. Do you know the wording? I know that no woman signing an admission form would read all the fine print nor would she exoect her consent would be broad enough to include a pelvic exam while unconscious. If they thought they had consent, why not have a little chat about it beforehand? I’m guessing they keep it a secret because they know they don’t have specific consent ETA. Or tell them after the fact, if they actually had consent. Which, of course, they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/34 "2019-06-27T01:45:06Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If a med student is told that as a teaching hospital all the patients have signed a consent form that allows students to practice rudimentary physical exams then it might be a close question. I haven’t examined the consent of any of the institutions involved. Do you know the wording? Perhaps a discerning med student would ask to see that consent form? ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/35 "2019-06-27T01:51:15Z")
With all the crap we went through in medical school, we never ever did a pelvic exam on an anesthetized patient who was not there for a gyn problem. We learned from paid models and we also had a 6 week ob/gyn rotation where we could examine consenting patients. I am definitely bothered that some schools think that this is ethical. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/36 "2019-06-27T02:04:27Z")
We had a Pit thread on this years ago, didn’t we? I thought they stopped it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/37 "2019-06-27T03:09:04Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I know that no woman signing an admission form would read all the fine print nor would she exoect her consent would be broad enough to include a pelvic exam while unconscious. If they thought they had consent, why not have a little chat about it beforehand? I’m guessing they keep it a secret because they know they don’t have specific consent > > ETA. Or tell them after the fact, if they actually had consent. Which, of course, they didn’t. I have no intention of defending this. It does indeed sound super duper uncool. All I’m saying is that while ugly arrogance was involved and this time of #metoo may push this away finally, istm more of a Doctors v mortals rather than men v women thing. Or sexual assault, or nazis. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/38 "2019-06-27T03:15:26Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > With all the crap we went through in medical school, we never ever did a pelvic exam on an anesthetized patient who was not there for a gyn problem. We learned from paid models and we also had a 6 week ob/gyn rotation where we could examine consenting patients. I am definitely bothered that some schools think that this is ethical. Likewise. I don’t know anyone who did either. I question whether or not this was ever done other than a very few places. Also had paid surrogate patients to coach us on first exams. And patients who knew we were med students and allowed it with superiors observing first times. That this occurs anywhere surprises me. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/39 "2019-06-27T03:36:32Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > That’s what I’m wondering. > > If they find an abnormal growth down there, do they inform the patient? Or worse, what if they do some kind of damage? For example, what if they use the wrong size speculum and tearing or scratching something? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096/40 "2019-06-27T03:40:37Z")
If they tried something analogous to this with a man, they would need their own services. I’m reminded of physicians who require a pelvic exam to prescribe the pill. I’m starting to see what people mean when they talk about the doctor God complex. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/med-school-students-routinely-perform-vaginal-exams-on-unconscious-unconsenting-patients/836096.md?page=3)