# Median net worth for single black women: $5 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168 "2010-03-11T23:27:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/41 "2010-03-12T18:52:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It would be worth thinking a whole lot about no matter **who** were on the bottom of the pile. The shape and composition of the pile is one of the most important facts about American society. (The shape and composition of the pile is analyzed graphically, BTW, in [The American Profile Poster,](http://www.amazon.com/Social-Stratification-United-States-American/dp/1565840216) a copy of which should be on the wall of every American-history classroom and every social-studies classroom in every school in America.) But that poster appears (according to the customer review at least) to be based on a totally different measure: income. One based on net worth _might_ be the same, or it might not. As stated above, net worth dramatically ‘penalizes’ the young, who may have significant negative net worth regardless of income; as such it isn’t necessarily a very good measure for social stratification, at least on its own. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/42 "2010-03-12T19:05:09Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > But that poster appears (according to the customer review at least) to be based on a totally different measure: income. One based on net worth _might_ be the same, or it might not. > > As stated above, net worth dramatically ‘penalizes’ the young, who may have significant negative net worth regardless of income; as such it isn’t necessarily a very good measure for social stratification, at least on its own. IIRC (lost my copy years ago) the poster also reflects net worth, but only for the highest strata. It does not, however, break people down by age (except WRT retirees), only by income, gender, ethnicity, and broad occupational category. Which **are** very good measures for social stratification. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/43 "2010-03-12T19:16:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > IIRC (lost my copy years ago) the poster also reflects net worth, but only for the highest strata. It does not, however, break people down by age (except WRT retirees), only by income, gender, ethnicity, and broad occupational category. Which **are** very good measures for social stratification. Certainly; though I thought the point being made in the post you quoted was that net worth isn’t a particularly meaningful measure, not that social stratification isn’t important. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/44 "2010-03-12T19:54:16Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > the other problem is that US tax code encourages people to mortgage what housing assets they have instead of paying it down; so the asset-to-debt level of even well-off middle class people is likely to be poor. I think the rest of your post akes some good points, but this part is bunk. The tax code encourages paying mortgage interest as opposed to paying rent, but not as opposed to not paying mortgage interest. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/45 "2010-03-12T19:58:27Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > One **BLACK** **WOMAN** is worth five **BUCKS**? :dubious: Where my mind went: _One black woman is worth five black men? Yeah, probably. :d&r:_ ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/46 "2010-03-12T20:15:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > To build on the comments above about income and net worth–most people’s most valuable asset is their ability to work (I know mine is). If someone has a skill worth $50k a year, and they can work for another 30 years, that’s a lot like owning an annuity paying that amount (with adjustments for potential to lose the ability to work and expected periods of unemployment). You can determine the value of that annuity simply using the NPV function in excel. But studies such as the one quoted in the OP typically don’t take such assets into account. “A lot like” is not “the same.” There’s a world of difference between worth one already has & worth one can conceivably earn assuming a) continued health, b) additional full-time labor, & c) a market for that labor. An annuity is simply owned, no matter what one does. Future potential earnings are very very conditional. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/47 "2010-03-12T20:21:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I care about equality of opportunity and don’t give a shit about equality of outcome (except to the extent that unequal outcomes show a possibility of unequal opportunity that merits further analysis). If that means I have no “social conscience” IYHO, then I’m OK with that. Do you understand that your first post in this thread (reproduced below) belies that? > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, someone’s gotta be at the bottom of the pile. If it weren’t single black women, it would be someone else, and then we could have a thread speculating about the reasons why they are on the bottom. > > I guess I just see the results of this study as a statistical artifact (i.e., that’s just how the numbers shake out) and not really worthy of thinking a whole lot about. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/48 "2010-03-12T20:26:32Z")
All of which can be used to adjust the value of the “annuity,” as I pointed out in my post. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/49 "2010-03-12T20:31:35Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > If the major asset that is being measured is essentially retirement savings and house equity, then of course lower clas single women who have to spend all their money raising their child(ren) will not build up much. Add in the whole early pregnancy-dropuout-poor income trap, and their chances get worse. Few will have an opportunity to buy a house, even in the lax credit market 3 years ago. They are not saying that lower class single women have a low net worth; obviously lower class people of any demographic will have a lower net worth. They are saying that black single women have a low net worth. The shocking part is how different black women are than white women. In my mind, the questions this raises are really why do black women have so many children out of wedlock as compared to white women when it clearly is disadvantageous to do so. > [@md2000](#): > > Net worth is a measure of fiscal prudence, but not necessarily of lifestyle. As pointed out, a well-off high-income but heavily leveraged person is living a much better lifestyle than a poor person, though they may have a worse net worth. What they ARE, is more precariously positioned when it comes to problems like layoffs and recessions. You people are completely overstating the potential for a high income but low net worth. It’s really just an artifact of the recent college graduate that may have student loan debt. The older you get, the more that a low net worth with correlate to a poor lifestyle. High income doesn’t last forever. At some point these people are going to have to retire. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/50 "2010-03-12T20:37:04Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > You people are completely overstating the potential for a high income but low net worth. It’s really just an artifact of the recent college graduate that may have student loan debt. The older you get, the more that a low net worth with correlate to a poor lifestyle. High income doesn’t last forever. At some point these people are going to have to retire. More an artifact of mortgage debt for folks in middle life, I’d have thought. It is easy to have a negative net worth if you own a $500,000 house, with 10% paid down & the rest borrowed. Edit: following the recent housing bubble crash. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/51 "2010-03-12T20:37:36Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Do you understand that your first post in this thread (reproduced below) belies that? I don’t because it doesn’t. Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/52 "2010-03-12T20:48:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > All of which can be used to adjust the value of the “annuity,” as I pointed out in my post. This statistic is for ages 36 to 49. If at the person’s current income level, they haven’t been able to accumulate any wealth why would you expect their remaining working years to be much better? If you are saving $0 every year, the NPV over the remaining working years isn’t going to amount to much of an asset. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/53 "2010-03-12T20:52:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > More an artifact of mortgage debt for folks in middle life, I’d have thought. It is easy to have a negative net worth if you own a $500,000 house, with 10% paid down & the rest borrowed. > > Edit: following the recent housing bubble crash. Its only easy in light of recent developments. Historically that $450,000 mortgage would be attached to a $500,000 house (with the $50K down payment being equity) and the house adding $15,000 (or more) of net worth annually to the homeowner. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/54 "2010-03-12T20:57:13Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > This statistic is for ages 36 to 49. If at the person’s current income level, they haven’t been able to accumulate any wealth why would you expect their remaining working years to be much better? If you are saving $0 every year, the NPV over the remaining working years isn’t going to amount to much of an asset. They could be saving more than $0 a year, just not enough to outpace liabilities they’ve already incurred. ---
**Author:** ![skearton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@skearton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skearton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/55 "2010-03-12T21:27:00Z")
I wonder how much the number would fluctuate if we removed Oprah from the equation? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/56 "2010-03-12T21:35:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > They could be saving more than $0 a year, just not enough to outpace liabilities they’ve already incurred. The primary debt that should be causing younger people to have a negative net worth is student loan debt. I’m not an expert on them, but I believe that most student loans have terms from 7 to 15 years. Even if you went to law school for three years following undergrad, you should have paid off that debt by the time you are 40. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/57 "2010-03-12T21:37:30Z")
> [@skearton](#): > > I wonder how much the number would fluctuate if we removed Oprah from the equation? 😛 I know you are joking, but even if Oprah was included in the sample, the number would not fluctuate really at all considering the study used the median and not the mean. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/58 "2010-03-12T21:37:41Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > This statistic is for ages 36 to 49. If at the person’s current income level, they haven’t been able to accumulate any wealth why would you expect their remaining working years to be much better? If you are saving $0 every year, the NPV over the remaining working years isn’t going to amount to much of an asset. Because at some point they can no longer reproduce. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/59 "2010-03-12T21:45:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Certainly; though I thought the point being made in the post you quoted was that net worth isn’t a particularly meaningful measure, not that social stratification isn’t important. No, I’m quite confident that **Rand Rover’s** point in the post I quoted was that social stratification isn’t important – that is, that (1) social stratification is inevitable, (2) therefore the details and the sociological and economic causes of any particular instance of it are “not really worthy of thinking a whole lot about.” The first is debatable; the second is flat wrong. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168/60 "2010-03-12T21:45:58Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Its only easy in light of recent developments. > > Historically that $450,000 mortgage would be attached to a $500,000 house (with the $50K down payment being equity) and the house adding $15,000 (or more) of net worth annually to the homeowner. I did some quick math. If a person was incredibly unlucky and bought at the peak of the housing market (June 2006) and used a 30 year fixed rate loan (6.67% in June 2006), then they would be under water by $68,941.48. This uses the Case-Schiller Home Price Index which has the national home price at 72.2% of what it was at June 2006 as of December 2009. You would have paid down $20,058.52 in additional principal as of March 2010. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/median-net-worth-for-single-black-women-5/532168.md?page=4)