# Medical Ethics - Emergency Medical Care and Personal Choice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805 "2023-09-08T23:04:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/41 "2023-09-18T01:04:23Z")
Who gets to define “reasonably”? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/42 "2023-09-18T01:19:34Z")
In the long run, the courts. In our actual life, we here on this message board are all reasonable people, so it’s not something we need to worry about. Bear in mind, there are many laws that refer to what a “reasonable” person would do, so it’s not like this is a new area for the courts to consider. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/43 "2023-09-18T02:13:59Z")
Ultimately, if the patient lacks the wherewithal to challenge their insurer in court, the most unreasonable staffer at the insurer will be the one whose standard of “reasonableness” is applied. If the law is not airtight, the insurers can and will walk over their customers. They’d be foolish not to. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/44 "2023-09-18T02:20:38Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > In our actual life, we here on this message board are all reasonable people, so it’s not something we need to worry about. You seem to be assuming that none of us on this message board have to worry about how to pay our medical bills. I don’t think that’s an accurate assumption. And the question isn’t whether we’d be reasonable about whether we had reason to think we had a medical emergency. It’s whether our insurance companies (if any) would agree – when, as has been pointed out, the company’s income is benefited by not doing so. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/45 "2023-09-18T02:24:03Z")
There is also the state department of insurance, that can intercede in cases of disputes like this. Every statement I get from the insurance company includes a paragraph on how to contact them. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/46 "2023-09-18T02:24:47Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And the question isn’t whether we’d be reasonable about whether we had reason to think we had a medical emergency. It’s whether our insurance companies (if any) would agree The point is, in the end it’s not their decision. Of course, I am specifically speaking of the situation in California, which is the only one I’m familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/47 "2023-09-18T02:28:41Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You seem to be assuming that none of us on this message board have to worry about how to pay our medical bills. No, I’m only talking about people who have insurance. Insurance is very highly regulated, at least in California. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/48 "2023-09-18T12:26:26Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The person afraid to call an ambulance has no way of knowing whether their insurance will consider that they had a true emergency. The two times I needed an ambulance I first called the phone number on my insurance card to see if I’d be covered. One time I was told yes, go ahead. The other time I was told I was covered only if using my home area ambulance company. I called for them (a 40 minute wait) rather than use the hospital’s ambulance that was sitting right there. Saved me a bundle. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/49 "2023-09-18T13:41:36Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > The two times I needed an ambulance I first called the phone number on my insurance card to see if I’d be covered. > > One time I was told yes, go ahead. The other time I was told I was covered only if using my home area ambulance company. I called for them (a 40 minute wait) rather than use the hospital’s ambulance that was sitting right there. Saved me a bundle. And, of course, depending on your medical condition, could have risked your life. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/50 "2023-09-18T13:44:00Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > depending on your medical condition, could have risked your life. I was stable (more or less) both times. Today, as a 65 year old, I’d rather risk my life than incur crippling debt. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/51 "2023-09-18T13:46:09Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Today, as a 65 year old, I’d rather risk my life than incur crippling debt. So would a lot of other people. But it’s a problem, and IMO a failure of the USA medical system, that people have to make that choice. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/52 "2023-09-18T13:57:08Z")
Not trying to be nasty here, but if you were stable enough to research your options and wait 40 minutes, why did you need an ambulance at all? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/53 "2023-09-18T14:21:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > if you were stable enough to research your options and wait 40 minutes, why did you need an ambulance at all? Transfer from the hospital where I was worked up and stabilized to a hospital 5 minutes away where they did stents. Initially I wanted to put my clothes back on and drive (that way I’d have my car with me) but it was pointed out that they’d remove my IV and I’d need it replaced, plus I was in “no condition to drive”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/54 "2023-09-18T14:51:28Z")
Okay. Inter- hospital transfer is a special case. The “reasonable person” standard, that insurance is expected to cover (excepting co pays deductibles etc. …) ambulance services if a “reasonable person” would think that such was “medically necessary” isn’t applicable. When my wife needed an inter-hospital transfer for insurance coverage we ended up waiting many hours in the ED. She was definitely stable but driving ourselves would have been “against medical advice.” The co-pays etc. can be not cheap though. FWIW an article about coverage. > **[Does Insurance Cover Ambulance Rides?](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/health-insurance/insurance-for-ambulance-rides/)** > > Ambulance rides are the source of unexpected medical bills for many Americans, even those with health insurance. A Kaiser Family Foundation report found that 51% of emergency ambulance rides for privately insured individuals included an... ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805/55 "2023-09-18T14:55:22Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Transfer from the hospital where I was worked up and stabilized Oh. You were already in a hospital. That puts a drastically different context on it than the more usual context of needing an ambulance, which is that one needs to or might need to be in a hospital but instead is somewhere with few or no medical facilities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-ethics-emergency-medical-care-and-personal-choice/989805.md?page=2)