# Medical Marijuana Patients denied organ transplants **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 28, 2008, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178 "2008-04-28T03:16:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/21 "2008-04-28T15:27:03Z")
[QUOTE=unconventional] **hajario** , what about people with a chronic disease like diabetes, are they automatically ruled out? [/quote] I don’t know specifically about diabetes but your overall health is certainly taken into account. If you have a disease that quickly attacks the liver and will shortly attack the new one, then you won’t get a new one. If, like some forms of hepatitis, it could very slowly attack the new liver, you’ll get on the list. > [@](#): > > Does insurance pay for the necessary life long drugs? It must get complicated if people change insurance companies. I don’t know about every insurance policy in the country but my gf’s drugs are covered by her insurance and my policy would cover me if I needed them. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/22 "2008-04-28T15:33:13Z")
[QUOTE=Declan] A lot of the other posters here have given good enough reasons why and on the dispassionate side I would have to agree with them, however regardless of what the doctors say , I would rather the organ donated go on a lottery list with no strings attached. [/quote] Even to someone over 70 years old? Even to someone who will continue to shoot up heroin? Even to someone who also has a bad heart who won’t survive the operation? What about a serial killer on death row or even a habitual violent criminal? > [@](#): > > Failing that, advocate that organ donor cards be marked not for donation. I hope that’s hyperbole. Failing that, you’re a fucking asshole. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/23 "2008-04-28T15:38:14Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] With a resource this rare, you can’t afford to essentially take the slightest chance. [/QUOTE] The “slightest chance” of _what_? That an already very sick person might up and die anyway, taking his scarce replacement liver with him? That the transplant recipient might, like plenty of other sick and well people, fail to protect his new organ from every conceivable insult? That a sick person who used a substance that was prescribed to alleviate symptoms of his illness might turn into a raging substance abuser and break his new liver? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/24 "2008-04-28T15:44:10Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] But marijuana doesn’t affect the liver. It’s a bullshit criteria to use. If he were using other prescription drugs (the marijuana was prescribed) that were legal on the federal level, this wouldn’t be an issue. _Even if they were stronger and more addictive and had more side effects than marijuana_. [/QUOTE] I agree that it’s a bullshit criterion. My gf’s doctors in CA would agree with you. The thing is that that guy wouldn’t get one anyway, pot or no pot. If you got upset over that article, you were played, my friend. This is his last ditch attempt to get media pressure on his side to save his life. I suspect that he knew all along that he was a poor candidate for transplant so he kept on smoking. He knew exactly what he was doing and chose not to quit. My girlfriend made a different choice and she got on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/25 "2008-04-28T15:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] But come on, marijuana is one of the safest drugs out there. How many people die from marijuana use? Is there any evidence whatsoever that marijuana use, even habitual use, will shorten ones lifespan? [/QUOTE] Other things aside, it is the _smoking_ that is the chief clinical issue here. Smoking any substance decreases the chances for a good outcome. Worse healing, lousy tissue perfusion, reduced oxygen levels, the whole ball of wax. Active smokers aren’t candidates for most transplants. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/26 "2008-04-28T16:36:05Z")
[QUOTE= cwthree] The “slightest chance” of what? That an already very sick person might up and die anyway, taking his scarce replacement liver with him? That the transplant recipient might, like plenty of other sick and well people, fail to protect his new organ from every conceivable insult? That a sick person who used a substance that was prescribed to alleviate symptoms of his illness might turn into a raging substance abuser and break his new liver? [/QUOTE] “Yes” on “up and die.” There aren’t exactly buckets of livers lying around- it’s not like the feds are refusing to hand them out because they don’t like the guy. If a kid gets the liver and leads a full life, better that outcome than this guy gets it and dies, thus taking two people with him. “Please try to be serious” on “fail to protect.” You’re not under an obligation to stay inside in a bubble, but you certainly shouldn’t skip happily through traffic either. Of course, you know this (or at least you should), which is why this argument fails. “Please try to be serious” on “raging substance abuser.” The “sick person” is sick because he used intravenous drugs, not marijuana. Furthermore, he can’t even use marijuana after the transplant because it is likely (not “could,” but "“is likely”) to kill him. The simple fact is that this guy is a poor candidate for a liver transplant by any criteria. If you want to cry about marijuana users being scapegoated, you really need to find a better test case. That’s why Rosa Parks is a gigantic civil rights hero and Claudette Colvin is a footnote- because when you want to make a point, you pick the person most likely to garner not just sympathy, but logical backing. This guy ain’t your Rosa Parks. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/27 "2008-04-28T17:17:05Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup] The simple fact is that this guy is a poor candidate for a liver transplant by any criteria. If you want to cry about marijuana users being scapegoated, you really need to find a better test case. That’s why Rosa Parks is a gigantic civil rights hero and Claudette Colvin is a footnote- because when you want to make a point, you pick the person most likely to garner not just sympathy, but logical backing. This guy ain’t your Rosa Parks. [/QUOTE] Very interesting, as a result of this post I read up on Claudette Colvin, whom I did not know about. Thanks **Happy Scrappy Hero Pup**. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/28 "2008-04-28T17:27:27Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] A past history of substance abuse is not a bar to getting a transplant, if continuing abstinence is documented. [/QUOTE] I’m not suggesting that it should be. I am agreeing with you that > [@](#): > > Given his history of past drug abuse, including IV drug abuse, combined with his continued use of a schedule I narcotic (which has NOT been shown to be safe or effective for his disease) which is contra-indicated for transplant patients, I have no problem with the decision. The article and the OP seemed to be suggesting that the only thing disqualifying this patient from his transplant was his use of medical marijuana. As **Happy Scrappy** mentions, this guy is not a good choice for a test case for medical marijuana. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/29 "2008-04-28T18:00:28Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I’m not suggesting that it should be. I am agreeing with you that The article and the OP seemed to be suggesting that the only thing disqualifying this patient from his transplant was his use of medical marijuana. [/QUOTE] The only thing disqualifying him from getting on the list in the first place is his use of medical mj. That said, down near the bottom of the list with two weeks to live and not being on the list is a distinction without a difference. I think that pot should be legal, for medical reasons or not. I also happen to know that some of these medical mj advocates a some serious low life assholes. They don’t give a crap about medical mj, they just want pot to be legal as do I but they will go to any lengths and will exploit people along the way. A very famous songwriter who I will not mention by name is one of them. He found out about my girlfriend while she was still sick. He and a bunch of other advocates contacted her while she was near death to try to get her to be their poster child. She would have been the perfect case but her activism would have killed her. They knew that and expected her to help them anyway just so that they could go to a hash bar without flying to Amsterdam. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/30 "2008-04-28T18:40:55Z")
[QUOTE=hajario] I think that pot should be legal, for medical reasons or not. [/quote] As it happens, I agree with you, but even if it were legal this guy would still be downgraded on the list if he smoked it, given what Dr. **Qadcop** (and Dr. Reyes) say about smoking and its effects on healing. Even if the article were giving us all the relevant facts - which I suspect may not be true - this is not a good poster child for medical marijuana. Although I suspect that much of what you say about marijuana - sorry, “hemp” - advocates is true. Medical marijuana is a wedge they are using to try to get the stuff legalized. Which is all well and good, but better they should say “marijuana is a relatively cheap and safe way of getting wasted. I want to get wasted, so I should be allowed to.” That I can get behind. The idea that hemp is going to fix the environment, solve our agricultural problems, or that it is just the thing even if you are dying of liver disease or have had a transplant just makes them look stupid for over-stating the case. If you want to get high, weed is probably safer than alcohol. But let’s not try to convince me that it is safer than jujubes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/31 "2008-04-28T19:05:35Z")
[QUOTE=hajario] I hope that’s hyperbole. Failing that, you’re a fucking asshole. [/QUOTE] Maybe I am wrong, but I interpreted that to mean that everyone is automatically an organ donor unless they opt out (you must carry a card saying “not for donation,” or it is automatically assumed that you will allow donation). That is one of the two ways that would result in a much higher level of donation. The other method is to allow for the sale of organs (and in the case of the liver the value of the liver goes to the deceased’s estate). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/32 "2008-04-28T19:14:03Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] Maybe I am wrong, but I interpreted that to mean that everyone is automatically an organ donor unless they opt out (you must carry a card saying “not for donation,” or it is automatically assumed that you will allow donation). [/quote] I just reread that I and I don’t think so but if I am wrong I will still disagree but take back the name calling. > [@](#): > > That is one of the two ways that would result in a much higher level of donation. The other method is to allow for the sale of organs (and in the case of the liver the value of the liver goes to the deceased’s estate). A sale isn’t practical. In most cases, there isn’t enough time to do an Ebay style auction. My girlfriend had to be within a 90 minute drive from the hospital at all times when she was near the top of the list. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/33 "2008-04-28T19:16:40Z")
[QUOTE=hajario] I just reread that I and I don’t think so but if I am wrong I will still disagree but take back the name calling. A sale isn’t practical. In most cases, there isn’t enough time to do an Ebay style auction. My girlfriend had to be within a 90 minute drive from the hospital at all times when she was near the top of the list. [/QUOTE] Yeah - I honestly do not know either. Maybe the OP can restate. The sale aspect would operate as an incentive to be a donor. If you knew that on your death another $250k might go to your kids, you might make sure that your donor card was up to date. It would not be an ebay auction as much as it would be an incentive to sign the card. Kidneys would be on ebay FAST, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/34 "2008-04-28T19:35:10Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > If you knew that on your death another $250k might go to your kids, you might make sure that your donor card was up to date. Jesus, where do you think all this money is going to come from? Apparently, in Austria you get stuck at the back of the line for donations if you had previously opted not to be a donor yourself. Seems like a fair but strong incentive to me. That combined with “presumed consent” seems like the way to go. A couple of years ago Ontario flirted with the idea of presumed consent but chickened out. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/35 "2008-04-28T19:40:53Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] JApparently, in Austria you get stuck at the back of the line for donations if you had previously opted not to be a donor yourself. Seems like a fair but strong incentive to me. [/quote] I can get behind that one. Fair is fair. Then again, I signed my first donor card when I got my first driver’s license when I was 16. > [@](#): > > That combined with “presumed consent” seems like the way to go. A couple of years ago Ontario flirted with the idea of presumed consent but chickened out. I have issues with that. I don’t have any idea how many livers that could be used don’t end up getting used. Most people who die don’t have donation quality livers due to disease or condition. If you don’t have a signed card, your next of kin can make the decision for you. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/36 "2008-04-28T19:50:24Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Jesus, where do you think all this money is going to come from? [/QUOTE] From the surgeon and hospital predominantely. The market has already set a value on organ transplant surgery. However, one of the providers is not allowed ANY of that value, so the remainder of that value accrues solely to the medical team and the hospital. They are, in effect, getting a subsidy from the estate of the deceased. For more input from the medical perspective: [http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7571/746](http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7571/746) > [@](#): > > Summary points > > - The severe organ shortage has generated desperation among people awaiting transplantation > - A black market for kidneys purchased from living donors exists despite prohibitory laws > - Everyone but the donor derives tangible benefit from a living donor transplant > - Controlled, regulated compensation to living organ donors should be permitted as with donation of other body material > - Legalised donation is likely to improve safety for both donors and recipients For input from an economist: [http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2006/01/should\_the\_purc.html](http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2006/01/should_the_purc.html) > [@](#): > > In a paper on the potential of markets for live organ donations, Julio Elias of the University of Buffalo and I estimate that the going price for live transplants would be about $15,000 for kidneys and about $35,000 for livers. We recognize, however, that the data are too limited to be confident that these numbers would be close to equilibrium prices that equate supply and demand-they may be too high or too low. But even if our estimates were only half the actual equilibrium prices, the effect on the total cost of transplants would not be huge since current costs for live transplants in the US are in the range of $100,000 for kidney transplants and $175,000 for liver transplants. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/37 "2008-04-28T22:54:52Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] As it happens, I agree with you, but even if it were legal this guy would still be downgraded on the list if he smoked it, given what Dr. **Qadcop** (and Dr. Reyes) say about smoking and its effects on healing. [/QUOTE] I also think marijuana should be legal, and I agree with your point. It really doesn’t matter if marijuana is legal or not. Alcohol is legal, but I am sure active chronic alcoholics are excluded from the transplant list. If smoking cigarettes or MJ makes a recipient vulnerable to infection, then not smoking should be a criterion. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/38 "2008-04-28T23:03:09Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] From the surgeon and hospital predominantely. The market has already set a value on organ transplant surgery. However, one of the providers is not allowed ANY of that value, so the remainder of that value accrues solely to the medical team and the hospital. They are, in effect, getting a subsidy from the estate of the deceased. [/QUOTE] Who would pay for the organ? The recipient? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/39 "2008-04-29T00:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=unconventional] Who would pay for the organ? The recipient? [/QUOTE] The same people that pay for it now - a combination of the recipient, insurance or the state depending on circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178/40 "2008-04-29T06:42:24Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] Maybe I am wrong, but I interpreted that to mean that everyone is automatically an organ donor unless they opt out (you must carry a card saying “not for donation,” or it is automatically assumed that you will allow donation). [/QUOTE] Nope Ontario is an opt in program, there is a box i think when you renew your license at the ministry. As someone else mentioned, the opt out method was looked at but I dont have any history on why it was rejected or shelved. Declan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medical-marijuana-patients-denied-organ-transplants/447178.md?page=3)