# Medicalizing irresponsibility: a term as ridiculous as "affluenza" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 23, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824 "2017-03-23T11:33:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/121 "2017-03-26T04:25:37Z")
I wish I were still young enough and ignorant enough to think "God, what a _Loser!_ _ **I** _ would Never be that stupid! Ever take Ambien sleep pill? Ever see someone state that the “Ambien Defense” to actions criminally/ethically/morally abhorrent was FAKE? That the person was trying to blame a pill for their own, depraved, action? I quit taking Ambien after 2 police calls, a window broken out from inside and finding myself dismantling my steering column - and I have no idea of how to do that, and,more importantly, no idea how to re-assemble it. None of those actions were “My idea” - the lesson with Ambien really is: "Get in bed, then swallow the pill. Never get out of bed after taking the pill. For all to say “My keys? Sure! But this was a baby! Entirely different!” is like saying “Ha! trying to blame a pill for his crime!”. Reality is a bit more complex than a school test with “Right” and “Wrong” answers. It seems to require an age of somewhere between 35 and 50 years to grasp that “it ain’t all that different”. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/122 "2017-03-26T04:33:44Z")
Maybe the reason a tiny baby can make all that racket is because they ARE easy to overlook. The idea of putting a baby behind you, out of your sight, on a car trip - which will put the baby to sleep and do a hypnotic effect on the driver (try to stay awake driving I5 from Redding to LA - I did that exactly ONCE - CA99 is slower, but it keeps you awake) is probably a really bad idea. If there is only the driver + sleeping (silent) baby out of driver’s sight, I am going to guess “Baby gets forgotten”. If you are going to put the baby in back, put someone else in back with baby. If it is just you and baby, put baby on seat beside you. Instead of moving the baby to avoid the airbag, there should have been a switch to disable the airbag. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/123 "2017-03-26T07:02:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry, i can’t imagine myself in the shoes of someone that treats every strange man as a potential rapist to the point where they should cross the street. > > If I crossed the street because I saw a black person coming towards me, that would be extremely racist, but for some reason, doing so because it’s a man is completely acceptable. I fail to understand this sexist reasoning. Remember when I said if you take it as a personal insult, you’re an idiot? ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/124 "2017-03-26T07:16:55Z")
I’m sure you’d prefer that women be so afraid of being thought sexist, that they let the man who _does_ happen to be a rapist get close enough to grab them. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/125 "2017-03-26T07:21:26Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > The idea of putting a baby behind you, out of your sight, on a car trip - which will put the baby to sleep and do a hypnotic effect on the driver (try to stay awake driving I5 from Redding to LA - I did that exactly ONCE - CA99 is slower, but it keeps you awake) is probably a really bad idea. > If there is only the driver + sleeping (silent) baby out of driver’s sight, I am going to guess “Baby gets forgotten”. > > If you are going to put the baby in back, put someone else in back with baby. If it is just you and baby, put baby on seat beside you. > Instead of moving the baby to avoid the airbag, there should have been a switch to disable the Cant. Babies now (at least in Aus) need to be in a rear-facing seat until they are almost 6’ tall themselves (hyperbole alert…) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/126 "2017-03-26T16:04:17Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > Losing a child is horrifying as a thought exercise. As a reality, it is almost unsurvivable. Living with any degree of responsibility for the death of a child is infinitely worse. I suppose this is why some people are so insistent that it can’t happen to them. To justify this belief, they have to invent the fiction that parents who forget children in cars do so because they are bad parents. They know it can’t happen to them because they are good parents, and they know they are good parents because it hasn’t happened to them, and they can be comfortable and safe inside this circle. They would just as soon forget that this tragedy also happens to good parents, and fails to happen to bad parents. They need to ignore the fact that pretty much every parent is sometimes great, sometimes good, sometimes bad, and often just so-so. Rape and robbery are inane analogies: one doesn’t commit those crimes out of distraction or inattention, and asserting that kids in cars is a purposeful crime is another counterfactual defense against an insupportable thought. Yep, and for this reason its probably not worth it to try to argue Manson and Hilarity out of their mindset. We are working against strong psychological imperatives, fundamental to their identity as parents. It isn’t going to be broken by a bunch of know it alls on the net. You can’t reason someone out of a conclusion they didn’t reason themselves into, and all things considered it may be kinder to leave their bubble intact. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/127 "2017-03-26T16:08:16Z")
Until some horrific accident happens to their children and people with those same attitudes howl for their blood because there’s no way that any parent who cares about his or her child could possibly have let that happen? Unfortunately, you can’t just let it go, because people with this kind of blind spot to a basic fact of human existence can affect public policy and hurt other people. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_Hey\_Paula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hey\_Hey\_Paula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_Hey_Paula)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/128 "2017-03-26T16:26:52Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Maybe the reason a tiny baby can make all that racket is because they ARE easy to overlook. > > The idea of putting a baby behind you, out of your sight, on a car trip - which will put the baby to sleep and do a hypnotic effect on the driver (try to stay awake driving I5 from Redding to LA - I did that exactly ONCE - CA99 is slower, but it keeps you awake) is probably a really bad idea. > If there is only the driver + sleeping (silent) baby out of driver’s sight, I am going to guess “Baby gets forgotten”. > > If you are going to put the baby in back, put someone else in back with baby. If it is just you and baby, put baby on seat beside you. > **Instead of moving the baby to avoid the airbag, there should have been a switch to disable the airbag**. [Bolding mine.] My newer (2014) car apparently has a sensor that does just that. I have no babies, but when I’ve taken one of my cats to the vet, and buckled their carrier into the front seat, there is a light on my dash that indicates that the passenger side airbag has been turned off. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/129 "2017-03-28T14:48:22Z")
> [@eulalia](#): > > She has no way of knowing if you are that man or not, and may not feel safe because she knows she would not be able to fight you off if you were,especially if she’s been assaulted before. You should not therefore feel personally insulted if she crosses the street to get away from you, and if you do, you’re an idiot. So if I see a big black dude, and cross the street just to avoid him, I’m not being racist? After all, I have no way of knowing if he means me harm or not. I don’t feel safe because I know I would not be able to fight him off if he does, especially because I have been physically assaulted before. Therefore, he should not feel personally insulted, and if he does, he’s an idiot. That sound about right to you? OTOH, on the actual subject of the thread, I’m on the “there but for the blessings of fate go I” camp. I honestly hope Manson and Hilarity never have to find out how wrong they are. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/130 "2017-03-28T15:05:32Z")
> [@eulalia](#): > > Remember when I said if you take it as a personal insult, you’re an idiot? Ever heard of Poisoning the Well? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/131 "2017-03-28T15:26:07Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > So if I see a big black dude, and cross the street just to avoid him, I’m not being racist? After all, I have no way of knowing if he means me harm or not. I don’t feel safe because I know I would not be able to fight him off if he does, especially because I have been physically assaulted before. Therefore, he should not feel personally insulted, and if he does, he’s an idiot. > > That sound about right to you? Yes, big dudes who go about in public learn to be conscious of the perception their size creates are they become big, unmannerly idiots. My husband is a big dude with dark olive skin who is frequently mistaken for Hispanic which in the part of the United States where we live most of the time is a minority as discriminated against and targeted for police harassment as blacks. Women cross the street all the time when he’s out in casual clothes. The only exception seems to be if he’s wearing a Star Trek T-shirt (word of advice those seem to cause women to read strange men as completely harmless and safe). Does he feel insulted when a woman crosses the street or clutches her purse when she sees them? No, because, he’s a gentlemen. Because he has female relatives who have told him about the problems they have had from strange men and he would rather be avoided than make a woman bothered and uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/132 "2017-03-28T18:23:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Obviously they WEREN’T just as conscientious and diligent and attentive as me. As proof, I give you the fact that they forgot their children were in the car. It must be nice to be perfect. Slee ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/133 "2017-03-28T18:31:37Z")
> [@Patx2](#): > > I wasn’t saying it couldn’t happen, I was saying I find it hard to believe. There are many things I know are possible but have a difficult time believing. If anything, the quoted article is astonishing for how few cases happen each year in the US, considering that: there must be millions of new parents with small babies in a Population of 270 mil. because new mothers don’t get paid time off from work (like in most Western European countries), but couples Need the income, sleep-deprived parents are behind the wheel more often because of the size of the Country and lack of infrastructure, there’s a greater Need to drive a car because the US is more southern latitude than Europe, it gets hotter much more quickly, fatally for a small child. It’s not just that People Forget keys. Several years ago, there was a Headline about a MI5 employee - a spy, in other words - forgetting a whole Laptop in the subway. And he wasn’t the only one. So yes, human Brains are not wired to on alert 100% and remember perfectly, but can be thrown off track. Accidents happen because several circumstances align to a chain; with millions of People every day, it’s a statistic certainty that in one instance, circumstances will align. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/134 "2017-03-28T18:40:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Your children are not your keys or your wallet. You just don’t “forget” they are in the car. In the article, it was a Change in Routine: the father was absolutly sure he had dropped his kid off at the usual childcare when he arrived at work, but when starting out, the plan had been to drive to another Location, as day care was closed. So he started out with Plan B, during the Routine of driving switched to “normal Plan A” and arrived at work with the Baby out of sight, and convinced it was safe. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/135 "2017-03-28T18:53:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This reminds me of an opinion another poster had in another thread: “All men are potential rapists” which of course I disagreed with. > > I will never rape another person. I know that for a fact. Would you consider that statement “a flat-out refusal to even consider you might be affected”? There are many rapists out there, but I will never be one. There are a lot more rapists out there then parents who left their child in a car. But unsurprisingly, I will never be one, just like I will never be a parent who leaves their child in a car. I will also never rob a bank. People rob banks, it happens. Doesn’t mean it’s going to happen to me. Am I also delusional to think that raping someone or robbing a bank will never be something that I will do? Forgetting something due to distractions, auto-Pilot and Change in routines is not a Moral decision, but a matter of how your brain works - if you are a human. If you are a Computer/ android, and your brain perfectly constructed to never Forget any Task, then your Assertion would be true. You’re basically claiming that your brain works different from what not only many real-life incidents, but also hundred of psychologial tests on Attention span, Memory, retrieval etc. have found about human Brains. Men as rapists, meanwhile, is a conscious decision depending on a lot of cultural definitions. Wrong comparison. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/136 "2017-03-28T18:56:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Wait, so parents don’t deserve to go to prison when their child dies from being left in a hot car? If you read the article, the Argument is that all cases of children dying should be carefully investigated, to seperate the bad parents who know they are leaving the kid in the car when they go into the Supermarket, but don’t care = intentionally neglectful; and those parents who take very good care of their children until their Brains fail them once, and tragedy results. Somebody who causes an accident by speeding while drunk is treated differently by the law from somebody who causes an accident obeying all the laws but being distracted for one second. Obviously every Driver should try their best to not be distracted, but it still happens. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/137 "2017-03-29T03:52:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Ever heard of Poisoning the Well? My point was that it wasn’t all about him. The fact that he and you completely missed it certainly doesn’t make either of you look smart. I don’t think the big black guy should care if you are afraid of him or not, as long as you don’t call the police and accuse him of threatening you or something equally dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/138 "2017-03-29T09:25:01Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > So if I see a big black dude, and cross the street just to avoid him, I’m not being racist? After all, I have no way of knowing if he means me harm or not. I don’t feel safe because I know I would not be able to fight him off if he does, especially because I have been physically assaulted before. Therefore, he should not feel personally insulted, and if he does, he’s an idiot. > > That sound about right to you? > > OTOH, on the actual subject of the thread, I’m on the “there but for the blessings of fate go I” camp. I honestly hope Manson and Hilarity never have to find out how wrong they are. Nice how you cut off the first part, where I said that the statement that all men are potential rapists did not mean that every man is capable of rape. The statement has nothing to do with you indignant individual males who swear that you would never rape someone. It’s about entirely rational fear, because rapists do exist. Please stop trying to make it all about you. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/139 "2017-03-29T10:22:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Until some horrific accident happens to their children and people with those same attitudes howl for their blood because there’s no way that any parent who cares about his or her child could possibly have let that happen? > > Unfortunately, you can’t just let it go, because people with this kind of blind spot to a basic fact of human existence can affect public policy and hurt other people. Oh good grief. I am not howling for anyone’s blood. I’m not going to “hurt other people” with my very strong belief that I as a parent would never ever accidentally leave my babies in a hot car to die. Which I know as an absolute incontrovertible fact. I did read the article mentioned above and I don’t think the behavior needs to be criminalized, in that I do recognize that some parents apparently do have a part of their brain that goes missing. I’m not even saying I never subjected my boys to substantially dangerous things, like hiking where there were rattlesnakes, or where we might be caught in an electrical storm. I’m just saying that for me, putting the kid in the car and then forgetting I had put him in the car is about as unthinkable, for me, as taking a shit then forgetting to wipe. Obviously not for everybody, as some of you seem to think maybe that could someday happen to you. (And god knows it may someday happen that I forget to wipe, but by then I’ll be so old there won’t be any chance of my endangering children, 'cause I’ll be in some kind of home.) ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824/140 "2017-03-29T11:32:38Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Oh good grief. I am not howling for anyone’s blood. I’m not going to “hurt other people” with my very strong belief that I as a parent would never ever accidentally leave my babies in a hot car to die. Which I know as an absolute incontrovertible fact. I did read the article mentioned above and I don’t think the behavior needs to be criminalized, in that I do recognize that some parents apparently do have a part of their brain that goes missing. I’m not even saying I never subjected my boys to substantially dangerous things, like hiking where there were rattlesnakes, or where we might be caught in an electrical storm. I’m just saying that for me, putting the kid in the car and then forgetting I had put him in the car is about as unthinkable, for me, as taking a shit then forgetting to wipe. Obviously not for everybody, as some of you seem to think maybe that could someday happen to you. No, we don’t think it may _someday_ happen to us. We just thank the gods that it \*didn’t \*happen to us when we were parents of little kiddies. But we DID know that it COULD have happened to us. Do you not see the distinction? Good luck with the rattlesnakes and the lightning all the same. You sound like an awesome mum who gets her kids out there and experiencing LIFE. But keep in mind it’s not the dangers of the novel that kill kids, it’s often the mundane… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicalizing-irresponsibility-a-term-as-ridiculous-as-affluenza/782824.md?page=8)